> General Discussions
Acts 23:8
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: ericsteven on May 08, 2008, 12:22:39 PM ---Hi Roy,
Would it be helpful to suggest that the Pharisees believed in the same resurrection that we do, that of the resurrection to "eternal" life and the resurrection to judgement? They, unlike the Saducees who only accepted the Pentateuch, believed in all the Old Covenant scriptures that foretold that the Messiah would come to resurrect his followers to "eternal" life; they just didn't believe that that Messiah was Jesus.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:13-14 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 19:25-27 As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God, Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.
Here's another viewpoint I found that's a little different. Don't know how worthy it is, but from their perspective it makes sense and could be helpful in your study.
The Pharisees’ affirmation and the Sadducees’ denial of resurrection needs to be understood in the context of what ‘resurrection’ meant to first-century Jews. Resurrection, while focusing attention on the new embodiment of the individuals involved, retained its original sense of the restoration of Israel by her covenant god. As such, ‘resurrection’ was not simply a pious hope about new life for dead people. It carried with it all that was associated with the return from exile itself: forgiveness of sins, the re-establishment of Israel as the true humanity of the covenant god, and the renewal of all creation.
God bless,
Eric
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kath and Eric.
Thanks a million sister and brother. The last paragraph in Eric's response is exactly what you have researched Kath, but what is really interesting in Eric's response are the verses he has quoted from Job.14:7,13,14 and 19:25-27.
But I think Daniel 12:2,3 :- “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." (Dan.12:3,3).
That really hits the nail right on the head, if we could only have another to verify it. There has to be another somewhere. Job 14 comes pretty close, real close:- “If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait until my change comes. You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands." (Job 14:14,15).
I do believe that they believed the same as we do, the difference being that they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah and are waiting for their Messiah to come.
Thank you Kath and Eric I do believe problem solved.
God Bless
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy
ericsteven:
Hi Roy,
Of course all glory goes to our Father for the fellowship and learning we’ve gained in this thread, but I do have to say ‘thank you’ to you for your question. I definitely echo what Kat said, but add that although I enjoy my personal study of the Scriptures, it’s thoughts like yours and people like you who are willing to express them that make me excited to put aside my own study for a while to focus on and research a concept that I may have never even thought to question.
May He never quench our desire to know more about Him.
Thank you, brother, and God bless.
Eric
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: ericsteven on May 10, 2008, 01:48:22 AM ---Hi Roy,
Of course all glory goes to our Father for the fellowship and learning we’ve gained in this thread, but I do have to say ‘thank you’ to you for your question. I definitely echo what Kat said, but add that although I enjoy my personal study of the Scriptures, it’s thoughts like yours and people like you who are willing to express them that make me excited to put aside my own study for a while to focus on and research a concept that I may have never even thought to question.
May He never quench our desire to know more about Him.
Thank you, brother, and God bless.
Eric
--- End quote ---
Hi! Eric and Kath
I'm so sorry to keep harping on the subject of the Pharisees' belief in a resurrection as I'm sure the Scriptures you have quoted are more than adequate, but the beastly ghost won't die, it keeps nagging in the background of my stupid mind.
Another thought flashed through my mind and I immediately recorded it on my digital recorder. And this thought appears to answer the question directly from the New Testament with an accompanying spiritual witness. I'd appreciate both your comments on this as they add considerable value to my walk with Him.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; 26and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world." (Jn.11:23-27).
The witness:
"......6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and drew nigh unto Damascus, about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me beheld indeed the light, but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do." (Acts 22:6-10).
I believe that when Martha answered Jesus and said; " I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." that she was still an unconverted Jewess and believed in a resurrection to judgment. But when
Jesus said to her; " I am the resurrection, and the life.....Believest thou this?" and she replied; "Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world" that she was immediately converted to believe in a resurrection to life through Him
I also believe in the case of Paul, while on the way to Damascus he was an unconverted Pharisee who believed in the resurrection to judgment. But after his supernatural experience, when he asked the question;"Who art Thou Lord? and received the answer; "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest" and he immediately responded; "What shall I do, Lord?" he was immediately converted to believe in a resurrection to life through Him.
God bless and sorry to be such a pest. The green bits are just to emphasize what I trying to say.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy
Kat:
Hi Roy,
I believe that Paul's experience brought about an instant change, because of the miraculous way that it happened.
But with Martha I'm not inclined to believe on this occasion that she was miraculous converted. But as you stated, she was still an unconverted Jewess and believed in a resurrection to judgment. She may have had a better understanding then most listening to Jesus.
But one thing is that Jesus had not, at that time, been sacrificed and the Holy Spirit had not come. So I don't think they comprehended what was yet to come. Martha did believe as much as she could without the indwelling of the Spirit, which was yet to come on Pentecost.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
ericsteven:
Hi Roy and Kat,
I’m thinking, and correct me if I’m off base, that some of what you’re getting at here revolves around the belief that there are two separate resurrections. It has been taught to me in the past that in the last day, there will be a resurrection of all the righteous first at the coming of Christ, and then after the millennial reign, the rest of the dead will be resurrected to judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment. So, in essence, there are two different resurrections. Many people use Revelation 20:5 as the Scripture to prove this.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
As Ray has pointed out that some scholars believe the first part of that verse is spurious, we may have to reconsider this idea of two separate resurrections. If that is the case, it may be that the Pharisees and the first century Jews of the day, like Martha, did believe in both the resurrection to life and the resurrection to judgment, but to them, it was all one event; it wasn’t two separate events as believed by some today. In other words, when they said ‘resurrection,’ they believed all would be resurrected at one time – some to life and some to judgment.
This viewpoint could be substantiated by Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Matt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
This sounds like one event. As does this, when Jesus says in John:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Of course, everyone wants to believe that they will be in the resurrection to life. Most of Churchianity today believes that they will be in this resurrection. I mean, I hope and pray that I am found worthy to be in it, but as we know, it is God and God alone who has already made that decision even before the foundation of the earth.
God hasn’t 100% sold me yet on either viewpoint about the resurrection. I’m still studying and trying to hear what He has to say, but if Mary, by referring to the resurrection, was confirming her belief that all would be resurrected in the last day, then what could Jesus have been getting at here?
I think perhaps He may have been saying that the resurrection to life that some will experience in the last day is just a confirmation of the spiritual life that those who believe in Him now have. We were all dead in our sins, but through Jesus, we have life. So in essence, Jesus has resurrected us from our death in sin to a new life in Him. As Paul says to the Ephesians:
Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
Eph 2:6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Paul speaks as if this is a present reality. We are alive in Christ, after having been dead in trespasses. Christ is our resurrection and our life. It’s not just a future event that will happen at the last day. This resurrection to life is something we have here and now in Him. Death hath no power over those who believe and trust in Jesus.
And like Kat said, while Martha’s understanding of that truth may have become a little clearer after Jesus raised her brother from physical death, it wouldn’t be until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and afterwards that anyone would truly understand the life we now have in and through Him, which will lead to the confirmation of that life in the resurrection at the last day.
Thoughts?
God bless,
Eric
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version