Are you the elect?

[KristaD]

Hmmm, I strive b/c He causes me to, b/c He changed what is important to me and I can no longer happily do things that I know displease Him. Honestly I am not in anyway striving for a place in the kingdom or to avoid the lake of fire. Whatever He judges is right for me is right for me and it's just not something that I trouble myself with anymore, I used to but then I just felt unworthy and defeated b/c I knew I wasn't "good enough". I am assured that He is working in me, that He is guiding my life and always has been, and I am assured that He will not let me go and He will see through what He's started to the end but I am in no way assured that what He's doing in my life now will get me out of the lake of fire but like a pp said it will mean less time in it .

[Kat]

The way I see this is when our eyes are opened to this Truth, we begin the race.  At that point we are among the chosen.  But the only way anyone can be of the Elect is to finish the race.  So if at any point you drop out of the race, you never were of the Elect.  Even Paul knew he was in a race that he had to finish.

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
v. 25  And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
v. 26  Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27  But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Since you can know that you are in the race, because you understand and believe these Truths, Paul continually tells us to give it all we have and never give up.

Heb 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
v. 2  looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Apostles knew that the Elect were among the Believers they were teaching.  So they always were encouraging them, as Paul said, "run with endurance the race that is set before us" and "do not lose heart."

Gal 6:9  And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Peter says "make your call and election sure."

2 Peter 1:10  Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

John used "little children" many times to encourage the believers, as a term of endearment.

1John 2:1  My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1John 2:12  I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

1John 3:7  Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1John 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
v. 19  And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

1John 4:4  You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1John 5:19  We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
v. 20  And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
v. 21  Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

You can not know for sure that you are of the Elect, but we are the chosen, we are in the race!  Never give up, because we are running for the greatest gift any human being could ever hope to have.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[KristaD]

I see what Paul is saying there but isn't it a carnal motivation to run for the prize?? I mean, to do right and live by God's laws b/c we want our place in the kingdom? Isn't that basically the same as the churchgoers who don't actually love God and say "well if there is no hell then why live right??" If our motivation is a prize then what if there was no prize? What if we knew we weren't going to "win"? To me it just makes no difference if I avoid the lake of fire or reign with Christ, I simply can't respond to God in any other way than striving to do what He tells me and to put off my sin (and that's only b/c He has made that my desire.)

[winner08]

Kristian: If that's how Paul taught ( about the race and winning the crown of imperishable) it only can be a good thing (yes)? I mean if Paul thought this was important enough for Paul to teach us, then it would be wise to listen. Yes? What if there was no prize? We shouldn't even consider this because there is a prize (reward) I don't quote scripture because I always mess it up. But I remember Jesus saying somewhere, your reward in heaven. Reward, prize. So I don't think it's a bad thing to strive for a reward in heaven or strive to be in the Kingdom with God at the end of our race. In the Kingdom (reward or prize). It's a very good thing. Now this this just my take on this subject. I could be wrong.

                                                 Thanks, Darren


                                         

[hillsbororiver]

Agreed Darren!

Here is more from Paul;

1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

And some from Peter;

1 Peter 1

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I see what Paul is saying there but isn't it a carnal motivation to run for the prize?? I mean, to do right and live by God's laws b/c we want our place in the kingdom? Isn't that basically the same as the churchgoers who don't actually love God and say "well if there is no hell then why live right??" If our motivation is a prize then what if there was no prize? What if we knew we weren't going to "win"? To me it just makes no difference if I avoid the lake of fire or reign with Christ, I simply can't respond to God in any other way than striving to do what He tells me and to put off my sin (and that's only b/c He has made that my desire.)

Hi Krista,

I can see your point and it's rationalization but when we are truly seeking His Spiritual Kingdom that is the polar opposite of carnality, it is the will of God.

Luk 12:31  But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Luk 12:32  Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Could this prayer from Jesus also be considered carnal?

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Peace,

Joe

[KristaD]

I guess I am supposed to be Kristian???
I'm not going to argue about this as I believe it is of no importance. We know that God has called b/c He makes that clear. Furthermore I believe that we are to strive for being the elect only BECAUSE it is the reward, not striving for the reward (to be the greatest) for the sake of the reward. No Jesus was not carnal, His desire was for spiritual reasons not glory for glory's sake for the same carnal reasons that people want glory. If it is God's good pleasure to give me the kingdom that is His decision but it's not something I strive for aside from that it is the reward. I am not disagreeing with the scriptures, I am simply saying that the reward should not be our motivation, we should be motivated by love. I'm done with this now. I don't believe any of God's elect would waste their time arguing or even discussing whether or not they are the elect. Please don't pm me, I am unable to send pm's for some reason so I can not respond.

[Kat]

Hi Krista, I can't see the harm in discussing the hope that lies within us.   

I guess I will direct this to others who may be interested in this topic.
Don't we all have reasons why we do what we do, we have desires/wills/lusts and we make choices because of those desires.  Our motivations is what causes us to take the necessary action that brings us to fulfill the desires of our heart, whether good or bad.

motive  1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act. (Merriam-Webster)

Christ speaks of our desires.

Mat 16:24  Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
v. 25  For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

These things that Christ is talking about seems to require great difficulty, so Paul gives us worthwhile motivates to follow Christ.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written:
      "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
      Nor have entered into the heart of man
      The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

We know that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7).
So where does this motivation to follow Christ come from in the first place.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So we have been given the motivation from God to "work out our own salvation,"  "to run the race," and yes there is a glorious prize to keep us motivated towards our ultimate goal.  It should be a joy to have this hope of being born into the kingdom at Christ's return, because God is certainly looking forward to it.

Luke 12:32  "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[winner08]

As I was reading Krista last thread a certain phrase caught my intention. She mention the Jesus was not cranial. I need clarification on this matter. While Jesus was on earth He was a human being.(correct)? and to be carnal is to be human. Jesus felt pain, He had human emotions. Human feelings. He felt the same as we do. Being the human side of Him not the spiritual side. We don't copare to the spiritual side of Christ. He was perfect. But according to Ray's teaching on the real Jesus He felt as we do.(feelings).Emotions). This just caught my intention.

                                                   Darren

[Roy Monis]

What about "make sure of your election?"

2 Peter 1:9-10

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I've always assumed that we can only HOPE for election.....? Does the above verse mean that we strive BECAUSE we hope? Or does it mean that we have assurance, because; whatever work He has begun in us He WILL finish?

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

We know for sure that His Spirit bares witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God....

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

but what does that REALLY mean? Will our spirit and His Spirit stand and be the witnesses necessary to establish that we are His on judgement day, or does it mean that as we become ONE with Christ, and hence ONE with the Father, we are being shown by the Father and Christ that we ARE sons of God? A kind of "ongoing" process? I've often thought about the whole "is, was, and will be" application here. Any thoughts?
Joyce

Hi! Sister Joyce

It's me again that nut from over the water.

How true (2Pet.1:9,10), but have you seen that formidable list of all the requirements. It's no walk in the park as Ray would say, and my knees knock at the mere reading leave alone the practice. But at most I can try, try, try and try and hope against all hope that I am able to manage it, or it's certain to be the fire for me.   oooch!

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus. 

Roy.  "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8

[winner08]

Sorry KristaD: I don't know where I got kristian. Again Sorry.

                                  Darren

[lilitalienboi16]

As I was reading Krista last thread a certain phrase caught my intention. She mention the Jesus was not cranial. I need clarification on this matter. While Jesus was on earth He was a human being.(correct)? and to be carnal is to be human. Jesus felt pain, He had human emotions. Human feelings. He felt the same as we do. Being the human side of Him not the spiritual side. We don't copare to the spiritual side of Christ. He was perfect. But according to Ray's teaching on the real Jesus He felt as we do.(feelings).Emotions). This just caught my intention.

                                                   Darren

Christ did not have a carnal mind, He was not carnal.

The human carnal mind is emnity [Deep seated hatred] AGAINST God. Christ NEVER hated against God nor went against His' Father's Will.

Christ was full of Grace [God's divine influence upon His heart] and i believe He had the mind of God in everyway.

Their are no scriptures that support the idea or notion that Christ had a carnal mind. I honostly think to teach such would be blasphemy.

God bless,

Alex

P.S. I'm not saying your blaspheming because i don't think you teach this, so don't get offended, none is ment. Only love and aid. =]

[winner08]

I am not offended. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I see I was wrong. Like i say it won't be the last time.

                                        Thank, 
                                 

                                         Darren                                                     

[joyful1]

Roy and all--
Yes, the list is daunting, but with God all things are possible...
and concerning the "striving part"....

He equips us for the job when we put on the whole armour of God....He just covers ALL the bases ALL of the time! (*see Ephesians chapter 6).

Krista--
He is the one who "searches the heart," so if your motivation is correct, HE KNOWS it...He knows everything!

It looks to me that Peter shows clearly that it is God that enables us to "do the list" in this chapter....and more importantly...that IF OUR HEARTS have NOT been changed....and if we are striving to "be good to get the reward" but  NOT REALLY doing things from a new heart, then we won't be able to CONTINUE doing them anyway! Like Kat said;

the only way anyone can be of the Elect is to finish the race.  So if at any point you drop out of the race, you never were of the Elect.

I am continuing my search in understanding HOW we make sure of our calling and election.

I think that we must begin with a sure foundation of TRUTH.
I remember saying empty things like; "Praise the Lord!" in church, years ago....it sounded good, I felt strong emotions when I said it, and I sort of meant it....but not really.....I would look around at people and wonder how I could be more like them, and really be praising the Lord.  Now I know that probably almost everyone was thinking the same thing!

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Jesus again emphasizes doing something from "the heart"...

Matthew 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

I agree with Kat, in that these things apply to us "once the race has begun."

Then the testing begins.

Now, I believe that the test is not to prove anything to God....but for you to TEST what God has given YOU! Through testing, you prove to YOURSELF that He IS working in you! I find it incredible that I am able to do certain things now that I couldn't have done in years past, because, like you Krista....He is CHANGING me! It is a process! (*I'm also dismayed when I fail, but in my heart, I KNOW that God KNOWS my intentions....and in that I am comforted.)

TASTE =TEST what has been given, is what I see here:

Psalm 34:8
Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

Once we've been given the faith to believe, been given the armor to wear, been given the knowledge to know better....THEN we DESIRE from the HEART to do the things that He says! We can't fake this step....its REAL or its NOT! What little change that HAS happened in me, is real and I know that it is real. Because I see God TESTING it for me to SEE that it is real. (*He is also showing me where I have NOT changed but need to. It's a step by step process.)

In order to SEE any of these things.....He must reveal them to us...He must give SIGHT TO THE BLIND.

I  know that these changes did not come from me, or from my efforts/works,  but from God. Apart from Him, I can do nothing! But with God ALL things are possible!

Just my thoughts on the matter. Please forgive the length!

Much love and peace to all!
Joyce

[Roy Monis]

Roy and all--
Yes, the list is daunting, but with God all things are possible...
and concerning the "striving part"....

He equips us for the job when we put on the whole armour of God....He just covers ALL the bases ALL of the time! (*see Ephesians chapter 6).

Krista--
He is the one who "searches the heart," so if your motivation is correct, HE KNOWS it...He knows everything!

It looks to me that Peter shows clearly that it is God that enables us to "do the list" in this chapter....and more importantly...that IF OUR HEARTS have NOT been changed....and if we are striving to "be good to get the reward" but  NOT REALLY doing things from a new heart, then we won't be able to CONTINUE doing them anyway! Like Kat said;

the only way anyone can be of the Elect is to finish the race.  So if at any point you drop out of the race, you never were of the Elect.

I am continuing my search in understanding HOW we make sure of our calling and election.

I think that we must begin with a sure foundation of TRUTH.
I remember saying empty things like; "Praise the Lord!" in church, years ago....it sounded good, I felt strong emotions when I said it, and I sort of meant it....but not really.....I would look around at people and wonder how I could be more like them, and really be praising the Lord.  Now I know that probably almost everyone was thinking the same thing!

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Jesus again emphasizes doing something from "the heart"...

Matthew 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

I agree with Kat, in that these things apply to us "once the race has begun."

Then the testing begins.

Now, I believe that the test is not to prove anything to God....but for you to TEST what God has given YOU! Through testing, you prove to YOURSELF that He IS working in you! I find it incredible that I am able to do certain things now that I couldn't have done in years past, because, like you Krista....He is CHANGING me! It is a process! (*I'm also dismayed when I fail, but in my heart, I KNOW that God KNOWS my intentions....and in that I am comforted.)

TASTE =TEST what has been given, is what I see here:

Psalm 34:8
Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

Once we've been given the faith to believe, been given the armor to wear, been given the knowledge to know better....THEN we DESIRE from the HEART to do the things that He says! We can't fake this step....its REAL or its NOT! What little change that HAS happened in me, is real and I know that it is real. Because I see God TESTING it for me to SEE that it is real. (*He is also showing me where I have NOT changed but need to. It's a step by step process.)

In order to SEE any of these things.....He must reveal them to us...He must give SIGHT TO THE BLIND.

I  know that these changes did not come from me, or from my efforts/works,  but from God. Apart from Him, I can do nothing! But with God ALL things are possible!

Just my thoughts on the matter. Please forgive the length!

Much love and peace to all!
Joyce

Hi! Sister Joyce

Please don't apologize, it wasn't too long by any means, if anything not long enough. Your thoughts on the subject were very edifying and sobering. Thank you.

I agree with you, I personally have come a long way and do not have very much further to go so I am determined to put on the full armour and finish the race. The task is indeed daunting but as we are in Christ and Christ in us, I fully endorse your words of encouragement, with God nothing is impossible.

God bless you and thank you for that.


Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy. UK........"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8

[kweli]

speaking of Armour, anybody got an (e-)sword to spare?

[joyful1]

thanks Brother Roy....you are an inspiration to all of us "kids" here too! Sincerely,
Joyce

[Roy Monis]

speaking of Armour, anybody got an (e-)sword to spare?




I sure have brother Kweli. How will this do?  The beast within!



God bless

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy      "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8

[winner08]

Roy from the UK, you are a trip. I think you still have work to do here on this earth. I pray it is in God's will that you remain here with us for alot longer. You know, it is people like yourself who have all this life experience and share it with people like me, who need to know these things only you can teach us. Personally I think there's no better teacher than the teacher who's been there. Anyways that's just me and how I feel. I don't speak for anybody else.

                                 Thanks for sharing,


                                       Darren

[Roy Monis]

Roy from the UK, you are a trip. I think you still have work to do here on this earth. I pray it is in God's will that you remain here with us for alot longer. You know, it is people like yourself who have all this life experience and share it with people like me, who need to know these things only you can teach us. Personally I think there's no better teacher than the teacher who's been there. Anyways that's just me and how I feel. I don't speak for anybody else.

                                 Thanks for sharing,


                                       Darren

Hi! brother Darren

Thanks for your kind words and encouragement it is greatly appreciated. Only one correction thou and that is I'm no teacher, that's Ray's task under the Holy Spirit of God's inspiration. I am just a newbie like yourself with everything to learn yet, that's why I'm on this forum to learn not teach. We can all learn from one another in the group that is why God in His own good pleasure has graciously put us all together, all glory to Him.

It is true what you say that over the years I do have a lot of testimonies of my God's love and mercy toward me in times of dire hopelessness which I will be sharing with all in due course. All no doubt predestined by Him  before the foundation of the world, but to me a miracle carried on the shoulders of a broken and contrite heart. This is the lesson I have learned and sincerely believe in: "For thou delightest not in sacrifice; Else would I give it: Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering. 17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." (Ps.51:16,17).

God bless you my brother and help you in your walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK      "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8