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called and chosen
Lightseeker:
--- Quote from: Laren ---Need a little help with these scriptures if you guys/gals could. This is partly why I posted this thread.
Rom 8:30 And, whom he fore-appointed, the same, he also called, and, whom he called, the same, he also declared righteous, and, whom he declared righteous, the same, he also made glorious:-
Would appreciate any thots. Thanks.
--- End quote ---
Laren,
The word 'called/kaleo' in the Rom 8:30 verse deals with the call to come from darkness to Christ :
2564 kaleo: to "call" (prop. aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise)
This word kaleo is in the NT over a hundred times and means something totally different than the word kletos you originally asked about in Matt. 20:16. Kletos is only in the NT 4 times:
2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
Kaleo is the call to become a believer and kletos is one who has already been called/appointed...a saint
I agree one does not have free will concerning coming to Christ. You have no more choice in being birthed into the family of God than you did being birthed into your earthly family.
JOH 1:13 Which were born (again), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
But I also believe that after being birthed into the family of God we do have free will. But I don't get adamant about that opinion.
JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
There is still the issue of 'freedom of will' versus 'freedom of action'. As a believer I can choose (of my will) to kill some one. I can fire that gun point blank and have it "miraculously" miss the person and they run off. Did I have free will?...yes. Did I exercise my free will...yes. Was my will accomplished?...no. Whose will was?...GOD's! But how is the Judgment seat of Christ going to deal with my 'attempted/free will' action? Jesus said:
MAT 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:...
That's why I think scripture admonishes us to take every thought captive to Christ. How can a Christian do that? By his own free will...I think.
Orion,
Good post. But, might I add, that the word for chosen in your quoted Acts verse is totally different then the word kletos in Matt. 20:16
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen/procheirotoneo before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
4401 procheirotoneo: to elect in advance
The word chosen in Matt. 20:16 is the word
1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite
So it appears to me that there's two Greeks words in this thread trying to be defined with one defintion by others here.
ertsky:
Lightseeker your post is full of dangerous deception and whether intentional or not i find i must correct the false doctrine
i've got nothing against you personally Lightseeker but your post contains misleading error.
first this bit confuses called and chosen
--- Quote ---Kaleo is the call to become a believer and kletos is one who has already been called/appointed...a saint
--- End quote ---
Mat 22:14 For1063 many4183 are1526 called,2822 but1161 few3641 are chosen.1588
called is the greek kletos 2822
klētos
Thayer Definition:
1) called, invited (to a banquet)
chosen is the greek eklektos 1588
eklektos
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
so MANY are invited FEW are chosen out
chosen out of the called
as in come out of her
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
#########
next this bit is no way to defend the false doctrine of free will
--- Quote ---But I also believe that after being birthed into the family of God we do have free will. But I don't get adamant about that opinion.
JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
--- End quote ---
John 8:36 is talking about being set free from sin, not enslaved to an idol of the heart called free will!
the illusion of free will results in enslavement to sin not freedom in Christ.
free will is really the will of the beast, the man of sin sitting in the temple of God showing that he is God
2Th 2:8 And, then, shall be revealed the lawless one,—whom, the Lord Jesus, will slay with the Spirit of his mouth, and paralyse with the forthshining of his Presence:—
######
then we have this
--- Quote ---There is still the issue of 'freedom of will' versus 'freedom of action'. As a believer I can choose (of my will) to kill some one. I can fire that gun point blank and have it "miraculously" miss the person and they run off. Did I have free will?...yes. Did I exercise my free will...yes. Was my will accomplished?...no. Whose will was?...GOD's! But how is the Judgment seat of Christ going to deal with my 'attempted/free will' action? Jesus said:
--- End quote ---
in the word of manuel from fawlty towers CHE!?
then this
--- Quote ---That's why I think scripture admonishes us to take every thought captive to Christ. How can a Christian do that? By his own free will...I think.
--- End quote ---
but the scripture says
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
and again
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
and again
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
when Jesus the Fathers holy Christ says "not as i will" then i just want to disappear altogether
talk about FAITHFUL
###########
i'm not typing all this to mount an anti Lightseeker campaign but because the doctrine matters
THE DOCTRINE
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
f
orion77:
Lightseeker, I appreciate your opinion. Also look at the word that preceeds chosen in this verse.
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
G3144
μάρτυς
martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr�: - martyr, record, witness.
The elect or chosen, who were chosen before the foundation, by God, to eat and drink with Jesus after, notice after He rose from the dead. Now these witnesses, figuratively speaking being martyrs. Now this is the same thing we as followers of Jesus do, we die and give this self up as a martyr to God. There is no greater love one can do than to give his life for a friend. The day will come when we shall see Him as He is, for we shall be like Him. As He was in the world, so shall we.
I also agree, I do not wish to argue over words, when we are really bringing up the same point, just from another point of view. We can all gain more knowledge from others perspectives. That is why I love this forum. Just hope we can keep it in brotherly love and respect towards each other. I value others opinions, even at times can be different. This can bring other things to light that maybe I cannot see.
God bless,
Gary
Lightseeker:
--- Quote from: orion77 ---Lightseeker, I appreciate your opinion. Also look at the word that preceeds chosen in this verse.
I also agree, I do not wish to argue over words, when we are really bringing up the same point, just from another point of view. We can all gain more knowledge from others perspectives. That is why I love this forum. Just hope we can keep it in brotherly love and respect towards each other. I value others opinions, even at times can be different. This can bring other things to light that maybe I cannot see.
God bless,
Gary
--- End quote ---
Gary,
I too, hope we can keep brotherly love and respect towards each other. Your word witness speaks to me of the importance of walking the walk in love toward one another. I personally don't think anyone's theology is without flaw including mine :wink: And even though Jesus was made like unto his brethren (us) in every respect, according to Hebrews, He still laid down His will[]/b to obey the Father in the Garden. May we do the same in our time of testing.
Blessings back to you and good nite
lilitalienboi16:
Good post ertsky, i too was gonna adress this but it appears you beat me to it :)
I have noticed however lightseeker ignores the scripture put before Him.
P.S. I am confused lightseeker, Jesus obeyed God in the garden? Perhaps i missed this, honostly asking for an explanation. Thank you :)
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