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John 1:1-5
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 17, 2008, 09:00:45 AM ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 16, 2008, 03:43:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 16, 2008, 02:46:45 PM ---
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
--- End quote ---
"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"
Bad translation.
Hi Roy,
Here it is in Rotherham's;
Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.
Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
His Peace to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
#########
Hi! Joe
I don't have a Rotherham's Bible but I do have a KJV, NASV, Interlinear and a concordance and they all render it as eternity, and I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.
After being alerted to it by Samson I have now read Ray's paper on the Trinity and it is as you say overwhelming evidence against the Trinity farce which I never believed in in the first place and that is the reason why I didn't bother to read it earlier. But Ray does not show a great deal of evidence on the creation of Christ.
So it hasn't helped I'm sorry to say, but I appreciate your input.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
--- End quote ---
Hi Roy,
Did you check out the link I attached in my last post? http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
Here is a portion of it;
ETERNAL DURATION AND MODERN CONCEPTIONS
It does not seem to have been generally considered by students of this subject that the thought of endless duration is comparatively a modern conception. The ancients, at a time more recent than the dates of the Old Testament, had not yet cognized the idea of endless duration, so that passages containing the word applied to God do not mean that he is of eternal duration, but the idea was of indefinite and not unlimited duration. I introduce here a passage from Professor Knapp, or Knappius, the author of the best edition of the Greek Testament known, and one in use in many colleges and ranks as a scholar of rare erudition. He observes:
"The pure idea of eternity is too abstract to have been conceived in the early ages of the world, and accordingly is not found expressed by any word in the ancient languages. But as cultivation advanced and this idea became more distinctly developed, it became necessary in order to express it to invent new words in a new sense, as was done with the words eternitas,perennitas, etc. The Hebrews were destitute of any single word to express endless duration. To express a past eternity they said before the world was; a future, when the world shall be no more. . . . The Hebrews and other ancient people have no one word for expressing the precise idea of eternity."
Here are a few other translations of this verse;
Micah 5:2 (New International Version)
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."
Micah 5:2 (New Living Translation)
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
are only a small village among all the people of Judah.
Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you,
one whose origins are from the distant past.
Micah 5:2 (English Standard Version)
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
who are too little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose coming forth is from of old,
from ancient days.
Micah 5:2 (Contemporary English Version)
Bethlehem Ephrath,
you are one of the smallest towns
in the nation of Judah.
But the LORD will choose
one of your people
to rule the nation--
someone whose family
goes back to ancient times.
Micah 5:2 (Young's Literal Translation)
And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.
Micah 5:2 (New International Version - UK)
2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
Micah 5:2 (Today's New International Version)
[a] 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."
Hope this is some help to you Brother.
Peace,
Joe
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: OBrenda on August 17, 2008, 08:23:57 AM ---Forgive my simple mind. This is very interesting and possibly to deep for me, but I can't see the question clearly ???
Is it what is the difference between, created & begotton?
We all have come into this world through natural conception.? (except Jesus)
Haven't we all been predestined by God for his purpose prior to our natural birth?
...
If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?
I'm a little lost here, can someone throw me a fish net, and reel me in?
Brenda
--- End quote ---
########
Hi! Brenda
This is what I'm about, the difference between Begotten and Created. There is a gulf as wide as East to West between them.
Let us first consider the physical world.
To be born it requires two individuals to be involved, the result boy/girl has the character traits of both father and mother, they are not mirror images of either one. They are separate individuals.
Now let us consider the spiritual.
The Father is Spirit and we are told that "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18) Only the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has seen Him. We are also told that; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2) that the Word/Son/Christ was in the beginning, and that the Word was with God the Father, and that the Word was God.
This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD. “I and the Father are one.” (Jn.10:30). "Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created." (Rev.4:11). In short a snapshot image of the Father but junior to or less than the Father by virtue of being His Son. "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).
What the Word of God is saying to me is that when the Father decided to start His work of Creation He brought forth, gave birth to His Only Begotten Son, who is a legitimate Son/God/Christ, and not a created God/Christ, who is then commissioned by the Father to create all things that are of or in the Father. Jesus Christ is the Creator/God and the beginning of all creation.
If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the creation not the CREATOR. That's what I believe and that is what the Word of God is saying to me following Ray's teaching, Scripture witness Scripture, spiritual witness spiritual.
I hope this answers your question?
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 17, 2008, 09:00:45 AM ---
I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.
--- End quote ---
???
Roy,
How do you come to this conclusion? Because an event happened in an age in past time that means it is eternal or always was that way? This age past somehow denotes that is always was that way and had no beginning? That seems to be a huge stretch my friend.
A few examples;
During my grandfather's age in the late 1800's and early 1900's he farmed an area that in the past was all agricultural, that same area has now been a residential neighborhood for well over 80 years.
Before the age of the Roman Empire Alexander the Great made Greece one of the most dominant nation/empires of civilisations past.
In ages past most people did not travel more than 20 miles of where they were born.
Can you see no beginning in the above examples? Did all of these things exist eternally before they changed?
Peace,
Joe
AK4:
hi all,
--- Quote ---If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?
--- End quote ---
That's what im saying. We would have a cause to paint that picture. But did God have a cause to want to create or did it just come out of nowhere and then boom (pardon my expression please).
That is what i think Roy is saying the difference in begotten and created. And looking at what strong's has put for the Logos, i can see what Roy is saying. Has anyone found a scripture where it mentions why God wanted to create? Why he even came up with the thought, or desire to?
Anthony
Dave in Tenn:
Roy, my overall impression of the paper was that Ray did what Trinity theorists don't do...that is he stuck with what scripture we have and didn't venture 'extra-biblically' to explain it. Now..how can he, or you, or I 'explain' God? We can find statements in scripture that describe certain characteristics of God, and teach/believe them as Truth. But even the scriptures don't explain or define 'Spirit', tell us exactly HOW God created the Heavens and the Earth, what existed before it's creation, what the interaction and relationship of Spirit to the Physical is all about, how God will raise the dead, none of the characteristics of God. When it comes to God, the scriptures themselves are parables. Does the Father have hands, a face, a backside? What is Spirit? What is Love, even?
So we have scripture that says the Son is both created and begotten. Makes me feel a little like Peter after Jesus 'explained' a parable. "Yes, Lord, I understand now." Oh really? I'm very sure that the Scriptures go deeper than I know now, but I'm convinced beyond being unconvinced that we cannot know now what those words really MEAN when it comes to God. To Rays' credit, I think, he doesn't go where Angels fear to tread. All language 'falls short of the Glory of God'. All we have are symbols, because in the end, that's what words themselves are.
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