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John 1:1-5
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 16, 2008, 03:38:34 PM ---
Hi Roy,
I follow you right up to this statement, "When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being."
So the Son - Jesus Christ - Creator of the universe did come out of the Father, but are you saying that the Father did not create Him?
As for the verse in Micah 5,
Mic 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting."
There are other verses that speak the the coming Messiah as if it were the Father speaking.
Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
v. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
1Sa 2:35 Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.
The God we always heard from in the OT was Jehovah, who became Jesus of the NT, He is the spokesman of the Father as no one has ever heard the Father's voice.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
I believe Jesus Christ always spoke what the Father commanded in the OT as Jehovah and in the NT as Jesus Christ, as in says in Mal 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;"
We have a Scripture in the NT that appear as the Father spoke too.
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"
We know that this was not the Father speaking either. Here is an email on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---
Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him." The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message. Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kath
What I'm saying is that Jesus Christ was in the bosom of the Father, like the fetus of a human child in the mother, right from the beginning. But unlike the fetus in the human mother which carries the character traits of both the mother and father. In the case of Christ in the Father, the Fetus/Son is the snapshot mirror image or identical image of the Father carrying all the same character traits as the Father, “I and the Father are one.” (Jn.10:30) including His power and authority but subject to the Father as He Himself admits; “You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).
Now when the Father decided to start creation, He gave birth to (brought forth, begotten) His Son/Christ, Son of God, God and commissioned Him with full power and authority to be the CREATOR/GOD in the beginning to do His Father's creation work. This Creator/God is the Word that was impregnated into Mary by the Holy Spirit of the Father and became flesh/ Jesus Christ, Son of God. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”? (Heb.1:5).
Only the legitimate Son/Christ born of Father and commissioned by Him to create, THE CREATOR, is worthy of worship but to worship a created/Christ is to worship the creation and not the Creator.
So to answer your question, yes, I am saying that Jesus Christ is the legitimately Begotten/Born Son of God and not a created being. I'm only deducing this by using Ray's very own teaching; Scripture verify Scripture and spiritual verify spiritual and can't see that I'm doing anything wrong. I had no idea that there could be any other interpretation to Jesus Christ other than the one I've given here. I admire and applaud all Ray's teachings and am deeply indebted to him for enlightening me on the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, salvation for all mankind and the absurdity of the notion of a free will, plus all his teachings which are truly inspired and will take me my lifetime to understand and absorb. God bless him and I pray to God for his healing.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Kat:
Hi Roy,
Here is the Scripture about we should not worship the creation.
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
But in this verse that says we should not worship the creation, we have an exception to what was just spoken before "rather than the Creator." So if this is talking about Christ He would be excluded by that statement "rather than the Creator."
We know He existed before He was begotten in Mary. But was He created or eternally with the Father? I'm not sure we understand about that yet, but here is an excerpt from WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? from the Nashville Conference 2007. This will give you a little more to think about :)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html -----
1Tim 6:13 I charge thee in the sight of God(so who is the subject here - God), who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;
v. 14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 5 which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Well you say that’s got to be talking about Jesus Christ. Well maybe not. I mean God is everything that Jesus Christ is too, you know. Who is the Savior of the world? Jesus Christ. God is the Savior of the world! Yes Jesus Christ is the channel through who it comes. But God almighty is the Savior of the world. He’s also the Creator. We are actually going to find out, who actually did the creating? Christ. But who is the Creator? God the Father. But we are going to see it specifically, in detail.
So then it says;
1Tim 6:15 “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16 who only hath immortality…”
I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But I’m thinking now, no, He’s talking about God. God only has immortality;
v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”
Isn’t this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?
Well here’s the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I don’t know of any.
There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. And where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
v
v
It says when Jesus was raised, He was raised a living Spirit (1Cor 15: 45). Was He a living Spirit before that? I don’t know. I tried to find a scripture in the OT (the OT is big), that said ‘God is spirit,’ and I couldn’t find one, you know about the OT God. In the NT Jesus Christ said of His Father.
John 4: 21 “…the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.”
v. 22 “Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.”
v. 23 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth…”
God is spirit. We have a statement like that in the NT. We don’t have one like that in the OT, at lease I can’t find one.
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
OBrenda:
Thanks Kat....
That was really helpful to me!
Brenda
AK4:
--- Quote ---That is what i think Roy is saying the difference in begotten and created. And looking at what strong's has put for the Logos, i can see what Roy is saying. Has anyone found a scripture where it mentions why God wanted to create? Why he even came up with the thought, or desire to?
--- End quote ---
I think i found part of the answer. This verse could possible be it, although alot of translations have pleasure translated Will.
Revelation 4
4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I dont think this verse i directly referring to God the Father though.
In Jesus,
Anthony
Roy Monis:
Hi! Kathy
Your quote; "But in this verse that says we should not worship the creation, we have an exception to what was just spoken before "rather than the Creator." So if this is talking about Christ He would be excluded by that statement "rather than the Creator." We know He existed before He was begotten in Mary. But was He created or eternally with the Father? "
Ages before Jesus was Begotten of Mary we are told that a body was prepared for Him in readiness in accord to the Father's predestined will. "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7). The Word has volunteered to do the Father's will.
Now we have this verse; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). This tells us that the Word was from the very beginning with God, and it also tells us that the Word was God and that all things came into being through Him the Word/God.
Now this may appear to indicate that we are talking about two Gods whereas we know that there is only the ONE GOD and Father. But this Scripture explains this; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18). So the Word is in the bosom of the Father, like a fetus in a woman's womb. Still only ONE GOD. This Word in the bosom of the Father is the identical snapshot image of the Father with all His character traits. Unlike the human where two totally different individuals being involved, the child would have the character traits of both parents and would be unique in genetic make up. In the case of the Father there are no two beings involved just the Father.
In the Father/Son relationship they have identical character traits but the Son/Word by virtue of being the Son is subject to the will of the Father out of Whom all power and energy, including the Word/Son comes forth. That is Begotten/Born but not created. The Word/Son is the legitimate Creator God, Son of the Father God. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1). Not created by Him but Born of Him.
When Mary conceives there is no human involvement, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." (Matt.1:18). The Holy Spirit of the Father implanted the Word in the body of Jesus, that had been prepared for Him, into Mary. The result was Jesus Christ the legitimate Word/Son of God. The CREATOR of all things and not a created being. To worship a created being is to worship part of the creation and not the true Creator.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. I hope this helps.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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