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John 1:1-5
AK4:
--- Quote ---Let me explain my reasoning;
Begotten means, bringing forth, being born, giving birth to. All living creatures, including man, can produce and give birth to, but they cannot create. That is God's sole prerogative.
Created means, to make, to produce, to manufacture out of pure energy, which is Light which is the Father. Only God has the power to create.
Now let us take the word Begotten. If the Father gives birth/begets the Word/Christ, Christ will be the exact image of the Father with His power to do His Will, that is, to create all things. In short He is the Creator/God who rightly deserves our worship. " "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1).
Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.
--- End quote ---
Good post Roy.
--- Quote ---I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
--- End quote ---
Dave, I agree its hard to fully comprehend God. When Roy first started this thread I was saying what everyone hear is saying---created begotten is the same thing. But I started searching through the bible (mainly the NT) to find anywhere where it says to worship Christ/Jesus. Everything i found was basically saying "praise God the Father of Jesus" or "for Jesus" or something of the like. This made me really think on what Roy posted and that ther must be a difference between the words created and begotten. Just look at what i had posted earlier.
If you or someone can find a verse that i may have overlooked please let me know.
In Jesus
Anthony
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 20, 2008, 05:08:27 PM ---
--- Quote ---Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
--- End quote ---
I've been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation).
Mt 11:25 - Show Context
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Mt 21:16 - Show Context
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"
Lu 10:21 - Show Context
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
2Co 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
Eph 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Php 1:11 - Show Context
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Heb 13:15 - Show Context
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.
1Pe 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
These I'm not sure on. They could be referring to the Father...
1Ch 16:25 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Ps 96:4 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Some translations translate Lord, Jehovah very few has the "he" capitalized (i dont know why).
Roy i see the difference you (scriptures) are saying.
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
Strong's Number: 1080
Original Word Word Origin
gennavw from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gennao 1:665,114
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghen-nah'-o Verb
Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
Born/begotten or created. Is it just semantics? Im beginning to see that it aint.
May God open all our eyes to what he is saying in His Word in Jesus name,
Anthony
--- End quote ---
Hi! Anthony
Your quote brother; "'ve been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation)."
Ever since Samson dropped that bomb shell "Thank God for creating Jesus Christ", I have desperately searched to the best of my intellectual and inspirational ability to find one bit of information to verify it but to no avail as it just doesn't exist.
I can only express my opinion on your question, but please understand I am not a teacher nor am I qualified to act as one. Having said that, I too was with Mr Armstrong for a short time till I realized that he was hopelessly under bondage and came out. But regarding your question I have to agree with him on this as we have a Scripture to prove it; "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2Cor.5:16-17).
But Jesus has told us something that delights the soul and I use it a lot: “In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full." (Jn.16:23-24). This tells me that I must pray to the Father, not Him, but make my request in His name.
I believe we are Begotten of God now brother through Christ our Lord. Your answer is right there in your very own quote; "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1Pet.1:3).
These are not new teachings, Jesus said to Nicodemus; “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (Jn.3:10-12).
I hope this helps.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
AK4:
Thanks Roy for help opening my eyes. I believe we all are striving/hunger for all the Truth in all matters not just some of it and posts like this is God sheading the scales off our eyes to be able to see It.
When i first read that paper from HA i was very skeptical and pondered on it for awhile. Then when you brought it up here i was like "what a better time than now to find if HA was on this and no better place than here in BTF."
Thanks again.
God bless,
Anthony
Heidi:
Hi Roy and AK4,
I have been studying Ray's paper on The Father's will.....(THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006)
"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with? Jesus Christ, right? The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.
In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
We read in 1 Cor 15:20 “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”
That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST.
Where did Jesus come from: John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
A couple of other points here. Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.” And what did He tell Moses? Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh. When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."
So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born. Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...” Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke. It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.
I hope this helps a bit.
Heidi
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 22, 2008, 06:31:59 AM ---
Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.
--- End quote ---
Okay, so in a nutshell, this is what this entire thread was about right? You believe we should not refer to Christ as 'created' since you believe it would be idolatry. Instead, you believe that we should refer to Christ as 'begotten' only. Is that correct?
One thing though...either word you use, Christ did not exist until the Father either begotten him or created him. Or do you believe that he did exist always? I'm not trying to start an argument but to only get to the bottom of this subject.
One thing I thought of to back your point...in Hebrews 7, Paul (or whoever wrote it) stated that Levite in the loins of Abraham gave a tenth to Melchisedec. Kind of like how you stated begotten means. So in that way, Levite existed in Abraham so the same way Christ, being begotten, existed in the Father. Looking at it that way, I could see your point.
Am I on the right track?
Thanks,
Marques
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