> General Discussions
John 1:1-5
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Heidi on August 22, 2008, 08:17:57 AM ---Hi Roy and AK4,
I have been studying Ray's paper on The Father's will.....(THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006)
"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with? Jesus Christ, right? The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.
In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
We read in 1 Cor 15:20 “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”
That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST.
Where did Jesus come from: John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
A couple of other points here. Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.” And what did He tell Moses? Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh. When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."
So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born. Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...” Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke. It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.
I hope this helps a bit.
Heidi
--- End quote ---
Hi! Heidi
Thank you for your response. Please allow me to answer your post, quote by quote. Please note I'm not trying to influence, teach, preach, or contradict Ray in anyway. I am just expressing my view and what the Scriptures are saying to me. It is purely my opinion that we're discussing.
1)......"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
In reply:- Where does it say that God created Christ? I don't see the word create, do you? It says the creation of God. so God/Word is the Creator, not the created. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ "..who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw." (Rev.1:2).
2)....."The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with? Jesus Christ, right? The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning."
In reply:- No it didn't begin with Jesus Christ, Jesus is not yet in the picture, it began with the Word. Let's keep with the Scriptures. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). What this Scripture is saying, is that the Word was with the Father from the very beginning, that is from eternity, and that the Word was God and all things were created by Him, the Word.
3)…… In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
My reply:- Indeed He is the First Fruit of creation, ( First Fruit that is first born, not created) the Son of God the Word/God. The First Fruit/Word/God created the heavens and earth doing the Will of His Father. God is not a created being.
4)........We read in 1 Cor 15:20 “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”.....That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST." That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST.
In Reply:- Absolutely true. “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” (Heb.1:5-6).
The first time the Word was Born was before creation commenced now again He is born into the world that wasn’t in existence before. This time as Jesus Christ in the body that was prepared for Him/Word in advance. “Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’ ” (Heb.10:5-7). This is God the Son speaking with His Father. Jesus Christ the legitimate Son/Word of the Father. He is not only the First Fruit of creation but now He is also the First Fruit of those in the world who slept in the world before His arrival.
5)……… Where did Jesus come from: John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
My reply:- Jn.7:29 “I know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent Me.” What does that tell us about His origin, we know He comes from the Father, He has told us that several times.
Jn.9:42 There is no Vs. 42
Jn.13:3 “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God,” We know He came from the Father, we have already seen that He was born of the Father and not created by Him.
Jn.!6:27-28 “ “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.” There is nothing new that we didn’t know before but none of it tells us of His origin, that is what we are discussing.
6)………Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
My reply Where has this come from? I see no Scripture that says that Jesus Christ was created by the Father, can you? “…in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.” (Heb.1:2). There is no mention of Jesus Christ being created. “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this.” Rev.3:14). I can see no mention that Jesus Christ was created. The Amen, the Beginning, the Witness indicates a Creator not something created. A, W & B are in upper case for that reason. There is no mention of Jesus Christ being created.
7)………A couple of other points here. Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.” And what did He tell Moses? Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh. When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."
So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born. Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...” Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke. It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.
My reply:- Christ (Jesus is not yet born) is the God Yahweh of the Old Testament, I have never denied that, but it has nothing to do with the present topic. What you are saying here is something I just don’t understand, it has no relevance to what is being discussed except for one thing and that is; “So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born “ Wrong! He certainly is not and nowhere does it say so. The Son/Word is doing the creating in accord with His Father's Will, He is the Creator and not the Father. Please read (Jn.1:1-3) very carefully before making that claim, because it isn’t true and we are here looking for the truth with Scriptural proof avoiding human guess work.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
PS:- Your quotes are highlighted in red
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 23, 2008, 08:19:17 AM ---
I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.
Who and What is GOD?
"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).
"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).
"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).
"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).
"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)
"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).
"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).
"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).
"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).
Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).
"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God's Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kathy
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I don't have a Bible or any translation that puts those words in that order, which makes the Word out to be the Father, so I cannot truthfully deny that. But if that is so then how can it be possible for the Word/Son to be in the bosom of the Father/Word? This can only be possible if we take Jesus to His word; “I and the Father are one.” (Jn.10:30). Then it becomes possible, which means that He is the identical snapshot image of the Father with all the Father's character traits. Hence worthy of worship. And not created but legitimately born of the Father.
The man Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah the Word the Son of God. There is but ONE GOD, but the Word was with God in His bosom, Christ is the ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind. Jesus is but the flesh representative of the Word as the Word being God cannot die, that is why the Word had to divest Himself of all His Deity and come into the world as Jesus the man. Still the ONE GOD and still the ONE MEDIATOR. “I and the Father are one.” (Jn.10:30).
Or how do we account for:-
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). This is speaking about the Word the Son of God.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
PS I have highlighted Ray's words in red.
ciy:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assurdly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and
Christ." Acts 2:36
Jesus had the anointing of Christ which made him "Jesus the Christ". One of the major heretical doctrines of Babylon is to get the people to kneel before a physical Jesus hanging on a cross. That keeps all looking at a physical Jesus instead of the anointing of Christ which is in Jesus and also must be in you as in Colossians 1:27 "Christ in you, the hope of glory". That same anointing is the Light that shineth in all men and "they comprehend it not."
Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise. The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.
According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]
The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).
All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.
In (something spoken including the thought) was life[if you will chase down the meaning of life it is spirit]; and the life [or spirit] was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness[darkness is what man walks in on earth, which is the carnal or physical]; and the darkness [or physical] comprehended it [or spirit] not.
I have no conclusion just thought it is interesting to ponder.
CIY
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 23, 2008, 12:10:36 PM ---
Or how do we account for:-
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). This is speaking about the Word the Son of God.
--- End quote ---
Hi Roy,
We all should be very careful when attempting to teach a doctrine based on one verse. Read Chapters 6 & 7 in their entirety. We see that Melchizedek is a type of Christ yes but consider this, we do have a geneology of Jesus Christ, Jesus died and was resurrected. Melchizedek does not have a geneology recorded in the scriptures, nor was his birth recorded nor his death. There is no record of a man making him a priest. He is a type a shadow as King David is a type/shadow. It speaks of the legacy of Melchizedek being fulfilled and completed by Jesus Christ.
This is another riddle/parable (Eze 17:2) that does not have a simple explanation but needs to be searched out.
Christ's priesthood began before the foundation of the earth, before man, before geneologies and will not cease even after God is All in All. To me it seems that you are saying Jesus Christ is not the Son of God but the Clone of God. If they are indeed 2 parts of the same exact entity then how could it also be true that no man has seen or heard the voice of God? What makes Christ and the Father One is the same thing that will one day make us One with Him, a single spiritual Mind that only seeks to do the will of the Father.
Peace,
Joe
AK4:
Okay think on this.
The Word had a physical body prepared for him.
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7).
We have been predestined (a body prepared for us too since God has foreknowledge) and created with physical body and basically had the same thing for us right?....
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 - Show Context
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Eph 1:5 - Show Context
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
So as for us being resurrected, we will be born of God and not recreated right?...
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Same as the Word. The Word wasnt created but born. The Words' physical body, Jesus, was made/created/prepared
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17). (bolding done by me)
So as the Word was born of God so will we. We wont be recreated just like the Word couldnt be created but born.
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).
Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.
And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).
What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).
Is it just me, but just as i stated in one of my earlier posts and with CIYs' post--
--- Quote ---Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise. The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.
According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]
The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).
All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.
--- End quote ---
Being predestined (something spoken including the thought) When the Word started creating/creation and since....
--- Quote ---Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
--- End quote ---
(Rays)
in this way doesnt it show how the Word was begotten and not created, but his physical, Jesus, was created.
Im will end this here because i know in this post my thoughts are everywhere because my niece and nephew keep interrupting in mid thought.
What do you guys think on this?
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps i didnt get to fully finish Reading Rays 12 Truths to Understanding Scripture again (i've read it before but its been awhile) before i posted this so i may be way off base, If so im sorry.
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