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John 1:1-5
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 23, 2008, 06:19:46 PM ---Okay think on this.
The Word had a physical body prepared for him.
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7).
We have been predestined (a body prepared for us too since God has foreknowledge) and created with physical body and basically had the same thing for us right?....
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 - Show Context
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Eph 1:5 - Show Context
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
So as for us being resurrected, we will be born of God and not recreated right?...
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Same as the Word. The Word wasnt created but born. The Words' physical body, Jesus, was made/created/prepared
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17). (bolding done by me)
So as the Word was born of God so will we. We wont be recreated just like the Word couldnt be created but born.
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).
Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.
And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).
What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).
Is it just me, but just as i stated in one of my earlier posts and with CIYs' post--
--- Quote ---Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise. The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.
According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]
The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).
All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.
--- End quote ---
Being predestined (something spoken including the thought) When the Word started creating/creation and since....
--- Quote ---Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
--- End quote ---
(Rays)
in this way doesnt it show how the Word was begotten and not created, but his physical, Jesus, was created.
Im will end this here because i know in this post my thoughts are everywhere because my niece and nephew keep interrupting in mid thought.
What do you guys think on this?
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps i didnt get to fully finish Reading Rays 12 Truths to Understanding Scripture again (i've read it before but its been awhile) before i posted this so i may be way off base, If so im sorry.
--- End quote ---
Hi! Anthony
I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".
Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 24, 2008, 10:34:01 AM ---
Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?
--- End quote ---
Hello Roy,
First off, thank you for your simpler, more direct post. I am a simple man who likes to get right to the meat of a discussion.
Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ.
Whether you wish to say begotten or created, Christ did not come out of himself. He did not exist but through the Father. So the Father, not Christ himself, brought Him into existence. Begotten or created, it is still out of the Father.
And when you say 'a created Christ is part of creation' and we are not to worship, it seems to say we are not to worship Christ in the flesh since all flesh is created by God. But the apostles did throughout his ministry. If that is not what you mean to say, I apologize.
One last note, I have yet to see why this particular subject is of great spiritual importance. You state that is is, but how does this issue edify anyone in whether they state begotten or created? Does it make one more spiritually mature? Is this an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect? It's a matter of words and they both (begotten & created) state that Christ came out of the Father which are the very words that Christ said himself (John 16:27-28).
Hopefully, instead of more & more post about begotten & created, there can be at least one post that shows, if any, what the spiritual importance of using one word or the other. This really reminds me of doctrine debates & issues that Paul repeatedly tells us to avoid getting in a big huff about (Titus 3:9).
Thanks,
Marques
hillsbororiver:
Adam and Eve were created, everyone else since then were born, does that mean we are not created? I am sorry I just cannot comprehend what the point is. ???
Peace,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
Great post Marques!
Joe
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 17, 2008, 01:34:29 PM ---Roy, my overall impression of the paper was that Ray did what Trinity theorists don't do...that is he stuck with what scripture we have and didn't venture 'extra-biblically' to explain it. Now..how can he, or you, or I 'explain' God? We can find statements in scripture that describe certain characteristics of God, and teach/believe them as Truth. But even the scriptures don't explain or define 'Spirit', tell us exactly HOW God created the Heavens and the Earth, what existed before it's creation, what the interaction and relationship of Spirit to the Physical is all about, how God will raise the dead, none of the characteristics of God. When it comes to God, the scriptures themselves are parables. Does the Father have hands, a face, a backside? What is Spirit? What is Love, even?
So we have scripture that says the Son is both created and begotten. Makes me feel a little like Peter after Jesus 'explained' a parable. "Yes, Lord, I understand now." Oh really? I'm very sure that the Scriptures go deeper than I know now, but I'm convinced beyond being unconvinced that we cannot know now what those words really MEAN when it comes to God. To Rays' credit, I think, he doesn't go where Angels fear to tread. All language 'falls short of the Glory of God'. All we have are symbols, because in the end, that's what words themselves are.
--- End quote ---
Hi! Dave in Tenn
Thanks for your input. But the truth of the matter is we don't have Scripture that specifically states that Christ was created. Now I'm not saying Jesus was not created, indeed, all flesh is created, initially that is part of the creation. Christ/Word is Spirit and the Word is Born of God. We are all born of God through our Lord Jesus Christ right now, not created."Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' ”. It's there, brother, born again not created. We are created flesh but we are born again spirit.
Spirit is invisible, no one knows about the deep secrets of God. We can but speculate as to what was before the was anything and it all comes down to God. We are told He is light and that He created dankness, but we are not told who created light. But Light is pure energy, so we can again only assume that all things were created with His energy. And then stop giving ourselves an unnecessary headache.
But it is extremely important to know who and what we are worshiping, whether it is the Creator who created all things or the creature who created all things. One is true worship the other idolatry.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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