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Confused About A Verse In The Bible
indianabob:
--- Quote from: Marlene on October 14, 2008, 05:30:04 PM ---Hello, I was reading in John Chapter 20 verse 22. I have read the whole chapter but still I am not sure what its meaning is there.I read in the NIV.
verse 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
vese 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven. "
I must be thinking carnal cause, I thought we were just to forgive all people.
So he would for give us.I thought maybe someone would understand what I don't see.
In His Love
Marlene
--- End quote ---
Friend Marlene,
I think this verse explains what Jesus' disciples were being sent to do in the very early church.
Those sent had been given Christ's spirit of discernment and spiritual understanding.
They were sent to people who were unlearned and novices in the teachings of Jesus. These novices had not had the benefit of direct teaching from Christ therefore the task of the Apostles was to counsel and advise them. If and when these babes in Christ repented and made a public confession, they would naturally desire to know what more if anything they had to do. At this point the apostles could tell them "your sins have been forgiven, go and sin no more". In this manner the novices would be able to accept that they had a fresh start and that God was working with them daily through the indwelling power of the holy spirit to continually cleanse them.
Or the apostles could examine them further and determine that their repentance was feigned and not valid and advise them to study further, pray and meditate upon God's word until their sorrow was genuine.
It seems that this would be a good approach for many of us to consider in our own relationships.
What do we tell our children about Jesus' character and forgiving heart? Don't we reassure them at every opportunity that we are sure that God has seen their heartfelt sorrow has forgiven their sins?
Just my view. Indiana bob
Marlene:
Indiana Bob, That is a real nice view. I would more then likely say that could be what he is saying. Thanks for your input.
In His Love
Marlene
hillsbororiver:
If the apostles were given the power to obsolve sins as flesh and blood men where are the scriptural witnesses that of any of them (including Paul) were telling anyone they have forgiven their sins, as in;
"I forgive you your sins."
This must be prophetic if we have no scriptures witnessing to the apostles forgiving sins at that time, if there are scriptures testifying to them doing this I am unaware of them.
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on October 14, 2008, 06:52:05 PM ---I see it as a prophecy of the next age, when His chosen are empowered from above to do His work together with Christ.
Oba 1:21 And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Have any of the above prophecies been fulfilled yet?
Consider this from The Lake Of Fire Part 12; http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT
"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).
Notice this verse in a few other translations:
"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).
"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).
"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).
Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).
"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).
To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!
WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?
The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).
Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?
You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:
"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).
WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:
First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.
But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?
The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?
Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.
"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:
Peace,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Falconn003 on October 16, 2008, 07:27:37 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on October 14, 2008, 07:37:50 PM ---Maybe helpful from Young's literal translation.
Joh 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22 and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;
Joh 20:23 if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain (the sins), they (the sins) have been retained.' (parentheses mine)
"According as the Father sent Christ". Christ was sent to forgive/remit sins. It is the 'sins' which they were instructed to forgive in this passage, I believe. If so, it's a match with the many other commandments to forgive.
That's as far as I can go, Marlene.
--- End quote ---
Dave posted::::
Joh 20:23 if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain (the sins), they (the sins) have been retained.' (parentheses mine)
Here are the witnesses:::
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Rodger
--- End quote ---
Hi Rodger,
Actually I am not sure what your point is, perhaps you can elaborate, but if you look at the two verses you posted as witnesses let's take a look at them;
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
"I will give you" is future tense isn't it?
Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Are we to believe that this was present tense, that Jesus was giving them this power at that moment even though the apostles at this point were still unconverted, are we to believe that these same men who could not stay awake with Jesus during His last hours and fled when He was arrested even denying Him were full of the Holy Spirit and full of It's power?
The churches teach these things as literal and present tense verses but we know the power of His Spirit will not be manifested in His Sons and Daughters until "the change" at the resurrection.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.
Peace,
Joe
Richard D:
Joe.
Is this talking about those who do not learn righteousness in the next age? And it will take the age afterwards for them to learn?
I know all will be eventually saved so there must be forgiveness at some point.
In His Love. Richard.
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