> General Discussions
Physical Bodies at ressurrection
cjwood:
--- Quote from: fe32k on October 20, 2008, 11:48:38 PM ---Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
--- End quote ---
fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.
claudia
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: cjwood on October 21, 2008, 12:59:41 AM ---
--- Quote from: fe32k on October 20, 2008, 11:48:38 PM ---Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
--- End quote ---
fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.
claudia
--- End quote ---
I have to agree with Claudia as well...your comments and line of thinking seem to be in conflict with what Ray has taught.
I'll also say from personal experience...it's good if you have some scripture when presenting a different point of view with Ray. I didn't and of course fell flat on my face when scripture was presented.
The one thing I've noticed (and you can go back and look for yourself) is that you have yet to present any scriptures, only human reasoning. That is always a red flag with me even with my own thoughts. The scriptures have to be our foundation as the Word is Christ, that rock. Your reasoning seems to hedge on humans being resurrected into spiritual, immortal bodies but with carnal minds like Satan is now. Interesting thought, but again, where are the scriptures to support that? I have never read that the children of the devil (wicked [John 8:44]) being fashioned into Satan's image.
I also had this thought which I discussed with a friend regarding this subject:
Matt. 23:24-26 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Do we think our Lord wouldn't take his own guidance and counsel? Why would he place a carnal mind & heart into a spiritual body (which is invisible by the way [John 3:8])? That's like cleaning the outside of the cup (body) before cleaning the inside (carnal heart & mind).
Hope this helps,
Marques
hillsbororiver:
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body5038 shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
H5038
נבלה
nebêlâh
neb-ay-law'
From H5034; a flabby thing, that is, a carcase or carrion (human or bestial, often collective); figuratively an idol: - (dead) body, (dead) carcase, dead of itself, which died, (beast) that (which) dieth of itself.
Marques presented some compelling scripture from Ezekiel 37, here is a second witness to what he posted, it seems apparent that the bodies being raised are corpses, beastly dead carcases....... However His chosen have a "better promise."
Peace,
Joe
Kat:
Hi Fe,
--- Quote ---But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible?
--- End quote ---
I think I do understand your point and here what I see in the Scriptures.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Only those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be given this "life." Now a little further down we see that this "life" is for the "heirs," to be "glorified" with Him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
This is the reward of the just, the rest of creation "will be delivered," so it is yet to happen.
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(NKJV)
It tells us in 1 Cor. that as Adam was "the man of dust" and so are all humanity.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Now in verse 49 Paul says "we" he is talking to the Believers, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." Here it is in the Concordant.
1Co 15:49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Now isn't this saying that those Believers/Elect will also be brought into "image of the heavenly man" at the resurrection? This image being heavenly - Celestial, which is spirit and unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you are still of Adam and "made of dust" and dust/flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.
But we do know who does inherit the Kingdom, His sheep, those that know His voice (John 10:4, 27).
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Akira329:
--- Quote from: fe32k on October 20, 2008, 11:48:38 PM ---Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
--- End quote ---
I think I understand your question.
My question then is why would God raise a carnel minded man to a spiritual body and yet still have his carnel mind? It would definitely be easy to then to rid yourself of carnel lust of the flesh since I don't have them any more, I have a spiritual body now!!whoopee!!
I can go to and fro like the wind now. No one will know when or were I'm coming from! Also take into the fact that carnel(which means fleshy) now dwells in an invisible body???HUH?? This doesn't work, at least not according to scripture.
All things are possible with God but this is not apart of his plan.
Also what is the purpose of a spiritual body? I think it has been stated already.
Men are flesh they must be dealt with accordingly.
This question is similar to asking why couldn't Adam be a spiritual being at the beginning?
It just wasn't God's plan nor his way of accomplishing his purpose.
Whats even more interesting to me is that God is dealing with these carnel minded men and wicked spirits the same way, with fire!! SO what does it matter if men are raised to be wicked spirits, they will be dealt with!!(But again this is not what God is doing)
Antaiwan
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