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Physical Bodies at ressurrection
pylady:
Hi Digitalwise,
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures. As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.
My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind. The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure). It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life. This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.
Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy. We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit. What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse. Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first. Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.
Sorry if I was not clear the first time.
Peace,
Cindy
Kat:
I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration. Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore.
But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account. Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?
1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh." So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"? Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."
v. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Akira329:
--- Quote from: Kat on October 21, 2008, 07:48:33 PM ---
I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration. Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore.
But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account. Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?
1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh." So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"? Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."
v. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hey Kat,
In verse 6:
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause(the cause of Christ) was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they(the dead) might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(men still in the flesh but walk after righteousness)
I'm not quite sure this is speaking of the white throne judgement??
I could be wrong because the words "might be" give me a since of hope or a looking forward to.
digitalwise:
--- Quote from: pylady on October 21, 2008, 05:44:33 PM ---
--- Quote ---I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures. As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.
My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind.
--- End quote ---
I do not see it as one moment in time but a consumation of all things pertaining to JUDEMENTS. The reason I say this, it is about the central figure in the redemptive drama - The Lord Jesus Christ in total declaration OVER mankind in a one off event. What follows are symbolic but only terms like sea of glass, actual throne, sky, the earth fading and the scene.
We can only take symbolism as far as it paints and declares a picture or imagine of Christ but we leave off saying or going as far as this is all pure symbolism when it comes to finality of events or consumational statements like prophesy in the end of this book of Revelations. We can believe in the teaching of resurrected bodies but how this translates to our new resurrected bodies is open to interpretation but NOT pure symbolism. That is: It will happen physically to those which are alive and remain at the time of the second coming.
Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.
The lake of fire and what follows are difficult verses to contend with. These are not literal but imply purging and cleansing as all fire does in the bible = both spiritually and physical purging.
--- Quote ---The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure).
--- End quote ---
Why has judgement already passed on us? I'm saying it has not - I agree with you - but why has it? Think of your answer after reading this.
--- Quote ---It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life. This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.
--- End quote ---
There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.
The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days. Some say there are two seats of judgement. The Bema Seat and the Great White Throne. I believe there is ONE JUDGEMENT SEAT! These judgements ARE NOT to be confused with NOT just judgements*, but FINALITY and DECLARATIONS of God's SALVATION for mankind. I will draw your attention to the verse in that Chapter.
*Greek krinō in Rev 20:13
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
As you can see the meaning of judgements does NOT just imply sinful or reprobate in the body resurrection of mankind! It is also a COMPLETION.
--- Quote ---Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy. We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit. What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse. Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first. Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.
--- End quote ---
As I've said judgments are not always punishment. It is incorrect to imply the word judgement in the bible always is harsh and punitive as shown by the Greek meaning.
Check the meaning Hebrews greek word on dealing with us as sons.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement*, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
* paideia
pahee-di'-ah
tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.
Bless you,
Digitalwise.
--- End quote ---
Heidi:
--- Quote from: digitalwise on October 22, 2008, 02:46:07 AM ---Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.
--- End quote ---
Ray has never claimed that the elect will not be judged in the LOF, expert from his LOF Part 3 "Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."
Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:
STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):
(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;
(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;
(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;
(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;
(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."
I call your attention to the statement in Strong’s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).
I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!
Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!
Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God’s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,
"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).
"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).
"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).
"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).
God corrects us by judging us, we are being chastised of the Lord now, before everone else, why....because He wants sons and daughters.
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our FLESH which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His HOLINESS.
Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:9-11).
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
(LOF 3)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
Heidi
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