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Physical Bodies at ressurrection
Heidi:
Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!
Kat:
Hi Digitalwise,
--- Quote ---There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.
--- End quote ---
1Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
v. 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
v. 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?
This is Paul stating that the Elect will judge the world and not only the world but the angels as well.
Of course Christ will judge the world, Ray teaches this all through the LOF, but He will judge the world throught the raised Saints/ELect.
Here is an excerpt where Ray teaches this in LOF no. 12
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ----------------------
THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD
The called and chosen were born to be Judges:
"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).
"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).
Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------
Here is one excerpt of many where Ray teaches that the Elect are being judged now, the first resurretion comes before the Great White Throne judgment, which is when the rest of humanity are to be judged.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------------
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
---------------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days.
--- End quote ---
One thing we all have learned is that all theology coming from the church is not only controversial, but in error. That is why we are studying what Ray teaches and leaving that behind.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat:
Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8 He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
These are just two Scripture that says Christ will judge the world.
world 1 : the earth with its inhabitants and all things upon it 2 : people in general : mankind 3 : human affairs <withdraw from the ~> 4 : universe, creation 5 : a state of existence : scene of life and action (Merriam-Webster)
The earth is 'the world,' it is the realm of human beings. This is what will be judged. Only the Elect will enter the kingdom of heaven as spirit being.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
If Christ was going to raise everybody as spirit beings, then they would be in heaven. The heavens are the domain of God and the angels - spirit beings.
This leads to a verse I have often wondered about.
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Is this referring to the evil spirits/demons that roam about in this world (causing so much trouble, for which they will be judged), having let their proper domain, which is heaven? This seems to make sense, since the messengers of God only come in the world of humans when sent on a mission.
Just some more thoughts on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
indianabob:
--- Quote from: Heidi on October 22, 2008, 04:46:01 AM ---Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!
--- End quote ---
Friend Heidi,
Good commentary, helpful.
Please expound a little more on your statement about the "volunteering heart and accepting the judgments of God on our lives now in this life."
I am inclined to agree and I want to be sure that I am not taking undue credit for the acceptance or the volunteering. We understand that our choices are influenced by causes God places in our life. How does this relate to personal acceptance?
Many who have come from a "free choice" background will wonder about this view of God's way of working in us. We understand logically that God is SOVEREIGN and yet we think we are cooperating with God to some extent.
Indiana Bob
ericsteven:
I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:
…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.
That makes perfect sense to me. That said, I don’t believe Ezekiel 37 can be used to substantiate this. (And yes, what I say below is only my interpretation, just as Marques and Joe have their interpretation, so take it as you will).
Let me begin by asking, does anyone here believe that the things spoken of in Revelation are literal events that John was seeing? Well, of course not, because:
1. John was seeing a vision while being in the Spirit
2. it is told to us that the revelation is signified, that is, told in signs and symbols, by Jesus to his servant John
Now, if we had not been informed that the book had been signified, would anyone here still believe that the great whore was literally a gaudily dressed woman prancing around the earth on a great red dragon, or for that matter, that the great seven headed beast was literally a great monster with seven heads and ten horns occasionally rising up out of the ocean like Nessie at Loch Ness? I’ll take a chance and say no. You’d probably still believe these images were symbolic or metaphoric simply because it said that John was in the Spirit seeing these things in vision.
So then why are some taking Ezekiel 37, where the chapter clearly begins…
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD…,
…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth? Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley. What valley could this be? Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death? What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about? What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions?
What I mean is that it is not unlike God to give multiple visions or explanations to people to explain exactly the same event. So what if we read the rest of that same chapter? The latter half of Ezekiel 37 describes the Lord telling Ezekiel to take two sticks, one for the House of Judah and one for the House of Israel, and put them together to make one stick. In this way, the Lord will rejoin the whole house of Israel that was split during the time of Solomon’s son, Rehoboam, by bringing the two houses, both cut off from God and scattered throughout the nations - being essentially dead - into the land He had promised Abraham and make them one nation.
Ezekiel 37:19 Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim…even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Ezekiel 37:21ff Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (nations), whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all
This is exactly what can be seen in metaphoric language in Ezekial 37:12.
Ezekial 37:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
The kingdom of the House of Israel, which ceased to exist after God scattered them among the worldly nations after the Assyrian captivity and gave them a writ of divorce, was to be brought back together with the kingdom of the House of Judah, which mostly disappeared after the Babylonian captivity and then ceased to exist totally after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and become one nation again as it was under the reign of the blessed king David. This time they would have the Christ as their king, who is symbolized in this passage by David.
Ezekiel 37:24-25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd…and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Now, if we look in the chapter before, chapter 36, we have another description of this same event.
Ezekiel 36:24ff For I will take you from among the heathen (nations), and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
The whole nation of Israel was dead, spiritually dead as is described by the heart of stone. But the Lord would revive them spiritually by giving them a heart of flesh, and the entire nation would be resurrected when God would bring them back into the land that God had promised their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In fact, God describes this resurrection of national Israel in verse 35-36.
Ezekiel 36:35ff And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen (nations) that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Has any of this happened yet? I don’t think so. Anyone who says that the nation of Israel founded in 1948 is absolute fulfillment of these visions given to Ezekiel hasn’t really read them very well. Hardly any of the Jewish people in Palestine accept Jesus as their Messiah so therefore their hearts are still as stony as the hearts of the Pharisees in the first century.
However, I do think that the process has started, and it started at the first appearing of our Lord on the earth. Here is what Jesus says in John 5:25.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The dead He's talking about here aren't physically dead people, but spiritually dead people. The words of Jesus were, even at that time, and are, continuing even to today, resurrecting the spiritually dead with hearts of stone and replacing them with hearts of flesh, able to see and understand what God is doing with His chosen people and with all the nations of the earth.
Ezekiel 37 is a description of the resurrection of the nation of Israel to the land promised to them (the New Jerusalem?) sometime before, during, after (I don’t know) the return of our Lord, not a description of the individual resurrection of people at the last day to reward and judgment. Yes, if we look at Ezekiel 37:1-14 all by themselves, it’s easy to come up with the latter explanation. But when taken along with the rest of what God is showing Ezekiel, I think that that explanation has a few flaws.
God bless,
Eric
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