> General Discussions
Scriptures Disproving Free Will
Akira329:
--- Quote from: David on December 03, 2008, 04:14:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 03, 2008, 01:09:23 PM ---
Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.
--- End quote ---
Hey David,
I believe you have a point.
Boiling over it, it doesn't seem to matter whether it was God or Christ. God accomplishes his work through his Son.
I found this old thread that help me to understand.
I see why you would render it such a way.
Good Morning!
In looking at "all things" this morning, a pattern seems to emerge!
1--He makes ALL THINGS
John 1:33
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
2--He subues ALL THINGS
Psalm 119:91
Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet...
3-- He brings ALL THINGS to himself
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
4-- He fills ALL THINGS
Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
5--He brings ALL THINGS to an end
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
6--He makes ALL THINGS new!
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Posted by Joyce.
Honestly I get very confused by this set of scriptures in Ephesians. I must keep up with the whom, him, his and he.
seems minor though.
Antaiwan
David:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 03, 2008, 09:50:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: David on December 03, 2008, 04:14:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 03, 2008, 01:09:23 PM ---
Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.
--- End quote ---
Hey David,
I believe you have a point.
Boiling over it, it doesn't seem to matter whether it was God or Christ. God accomplishes his work through his Son.
I found this old thread that help me to understand.
I see why you would render it such a way.
Good Morning!
In looking at "all things" this morning, a pattern seems to emerge!
1--He makes ALL THINGS
John 1:33
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
2--He subues ALL THINGS
Psalm 119:91
Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet...
3-- He brings ALL THINGS to himself
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
4-- He fills ALL THINGS
Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
5--He brings ALL THINGS to an end
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
6--He makes ALL THINGS new!
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Posted by Joyce.
Honestly I get very confused by this set of scriptures in Ephesians. I must keep up with the whom, him, his and he.
seems minor though.
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
Thank you Antaiwan.
I too get confused as to who Paul is refering to sometimes. In ch 1 of Ephesians he's constantly using Him, He, Himself, and its all interchanging between Christ and God the Father. It may be a minor point to some, but as confusing as it is I think its important to try and determine which He, Him, Himself Paul means. The reason being, and this is just my oppinion I'm not trying to push anything.........its so easy to to render all the "Him" as the Father in verse 11, and just say "well its all Gods will, Eph 1:11 says so.....whatever happens, whatever sins we do, etc etc, its all Gods will, don't blame me, blame God, its His will" and I have come accross that attitude, and there are false ministers teaching it.
Clearly sinning is not Gods will, Gods will is for us to be free from sin and death. It is all Gods plan and purpose, it is all caused by God, He puts the situations in place, but we make the caused choices, and as carnal people its always against Gods will. Thats why I think its important to render the 2nd Him in verse 11 as Christ, Christ always does the will of the Father, He (Christ) works all things according to to the counsel of His (the Fathers) will.
Akira329:
From Rays Free Will Paper
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11)
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).
Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.
Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David
Antaiwan
Daddysgirl:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 04, 2008, 06:04:50 AM ---From Rays Free Will Paper
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11)
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).
Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.
Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
David
I also have to agree with Antaiwan. When i initially saw your post i had a problem with the "He" being Jesus, not that the scripture wouldn't be true if it were Jesus, but this has been my best scripture in understanding that all is of God the father.
Also, i find that the "His Own Will" part in the end renders the "working"(operates) to God. I hope you get what i mean. It would hardly make sense to include "own" if it were Jesus doing the "working".
Nonetheless, i also see where you coming from.
Matty
legoman:
Here are some more verses on this. On occasion I've pointed these out to people who believe in free will:
Matthew 10
29-"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30-"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31-"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
Col 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Job 14:16
For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
Psalm 37:23
The steps of a man are established by the LORD, And He delights in his way.
Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 and Jer 10:23 are very revealing. God is directing our steps - how can we understand it all? Very telling as many people go along in life wondering what they are here for. It is all being directed according to God's plan. But it can seem confusing if you don't realize that.
Of course don't forget to read Psalm 139 where we see that God knows everything about us, even what we will think & say before we say it.
And then there's the unfortunate moment when we will die. That too has been planned and appointed by God:
Job 14:5
Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
But not only that, God has also determined how many days we must wait until we are made alive again at the resurrection:
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
God is directing it all for his good purposes:
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.
1 Cor 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Romans 9 and many other places also confirm the lack of free will.
But who believes it....
Kevin
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