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Scriptures Disproving Free Will
Ricky:
Thx Samsom, can you go on with verses that disprove hell, tithes, and other christian church beliefs.
Bless you all Ricky
Samson:
Thankyou for your Comments,
Ricky, I prefer or desire to stay with the information focusing on the Myth
of Free Will Series, so as not to veer off this specific Topic. There is
approximately 125 pages from those four Parts. Nothing Personal. Also
looking for individual examples of those who didn't have Free Will from
the Scriptures.
Below is an excerpt from Ray, Myth of Free will part A differentiating
between God's Stated Will and his Plan.
DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD’S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS
Few students of the Scriptures have learned the truth regarding God’s stated WILL and His PLAN or INTENTIONS. They are clearly not one and the same. They operate completely differently for different purposes.
First we should understand that God’s will is used both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, God’s will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. It is usually not too hard to tell in Scripture whether the word "will" is used as a noun or a verb. In the Scripture we just used to show that things only happen "if God will," it is used as a verb. And whenever God uses His will as a verb, then it absolutely will be fulfilled and carried out at the time and place that He wills it.
If, however, God is speaking of His will as a noun, meaning His ultimate goal, then it does not immediately come about in totality at the place and time that He states it. A perfect example of God’s will as a noun and it not coming to total fruition at the place and time stated, is in what is popularly called "The Lord’s Prayer."
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heave" (Matt. 6:9-10).
I don’t think too many would argue that God’s kingdom and His will has not totally come to this earth as it is in heaven. This is a goal—it will happen, just not at this time. And so man’s will is almost always at variance with God’s stated will as His ultimate goal for the human race. But God’s day-to-day willing of events to carrying out His plan is never ever contradicted or thwarted by puny man. Paul understood this principle perfectly.
Some Scriptural Examples of those who didn't have Free Will mentioned below.
The Apostle Peter--In Matthew Chapter 26 Peter said although the others would be stumbled,
he would never be made to stumble, he said he would not deny Jesus, even if he had to die
with him. Jesus said that Peter would deny him three times before the cock crowed.
Comment- So it was Peters Will that he would not deny Jesus and would even die
with him, but fear was the prior cause leading to a different choice or
outcome, God's Will stated through Jesus. All the disciples forsook him
and fled.
Example of Pharaoh below.
We will now look at some of the most profound and yet most misunderstood and not believed Scriptures in the entire Bible.
"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Rom. 9:15).
Just who is in control in this statement, puny man or God? Man’s will is not free to contradict what God says He WILL DO.
"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).
What puny man "wills" has absolutely nothing to do with what God WILL DO.
"For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens" (Vers. 17-18).
Pharaoh did not harden his own heart—God said that He hardened it.
Remember I said that God has a stated will as a goal and an active will in the plan or process of obtaining His stated will? Right here we can see this principle in action:
God states His will:
"Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go…" (Ex. 9:1).
There is God’s stated will—He wants Pharaoh to "Let my people go…" But does God expect or even want His "will be done on earth" at the time that He declares it? Obviously not. In fact, it is God Himself, Who prevents Pharaoh from doing God’s stated will of letting His people go. Notice it:
"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses" (Ver. 12).
Most Christians just plain refuse to believe these very simple Scriptures. Yet the ramifications of these Scriptural truths are enormous. Notice what God did with Pharaoh:
First God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh to "to let My people go." And Pharaoh would have let the Hebrews go. Sure he would, had not God Himself intervened. Why would Pharaoh let them go? Because Pharaoh’s heart was both soft and weak. A soft and weak heart was no match for God. Pharaoh would have caved in and let His people go. But God did not want Pharaoh to let His people go. He asked Pharaoh to let His people go, but He didn’t want Pharaoh to let them go this easily.
Next God has to do something in order to prevent Pharaoh from letting His people go. God actually wants Pharaoh to go against His stated will. God’s stated will is "let My people go," but God doesn’t want Pharaoh to do God’s stated will at this time. He wants Pharaoh to resist God.
God has not changed, God still wants mankind to resist Him. But Pharaoh (just like the rest of humanity) is too weak and soft to resist God. So what does God do? Two things:
"And I will harden [Heb: qashah—to make hard] Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay My hand upon Egypt, and bring forth Mine armies, and My people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth Mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them"
After God hardens Pharaoh’s heart [makes it harder than it was], and Pharaoh resists God’s will and refuses to let the Hebrews go, God then puts greater and greater plagues upon Egypt until even hard-hearted Pharaoh gives in and lets the people go. But notice what God does after this.
"For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness has shut them in. And I will harden [Heb: chazaq—to make strong and courageous] Pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so" (Ex. 14:3-4).
Pharaoh was naturally too soft of heart to resist letting the Hebrews go, and so God hardened his soft heart so that he would resist and would not let the people go until God first made a great display of His strength to the Egyptians. And after Pharaoh did let the people go, God wanted Pharaoh to try and follow after them and kill them. But this time we find that Pharaoh’s heart was too weak. And so again, God strengthens and gives courage to Pharaoh’s weak heart, and Pharaoh charges after Israel only to be totally defeated by God in the Red Sea.
Well, there it is. How hard is that to understand? But who will believe it? From Pharaoh’s birth until his death, God had a purpose for Pharaoh’s life, and God controlled every aspect of it. Pharaoh had not "free will" in any of these events. God changes not; He operates the same way in everyone’s life. You will either be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor, and it is ALL UP TO GOD!
Looking Forward to more individual examples, Samson.
E. Woods:
????????????? What if a man who does not believe in Christ, kills himself?
are you saying God made him do it? E.J.
Akira329:
--- Quote from: David on December 02, 2008, 01:58:18 PM ---Hi Samson,
I'm seeing Eph 1:11 a little differently lately to the way I always thought it was to be interpreted.
As I understand it, this scripture has been taught as follows,
In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (The Father) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "
I don't see it that way anymore. This is how it makes perfect sense to me.
In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (Christ) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "
Christ works all things according to the counsel of His Fathers will. I don't see that God the Father needs to counsel Himself in order to work things according to His will.
Christ always does everything according to the Fathers will. We on the other hand do not. We do all things according to His predestined plan and purpose, but not His will. All of what we do in our carnal state is totally contrary to Gods will.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will (counsel in the KJV) of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
There are many many scriptures that tell us that Gods people did many things "against God" "Contrary" to God etc.
No. I'm thinking that Eph 1:11 is talking about Christ doing the will of the Father, not God the Father doing the will of God the Father. And we as carnal human beings certainly do nothing according to the counsel of Gods will, we do everything against Gods will.
Before I'm accused, I am in no way suggesting or saying that this scripture contradicts Gods sovereignty, or His plan and purpose. God is in control of everything, we do not have a free will. What I'm saying is that we do not do Gods will as carnal people in the world, carnal Christians, even converted Christians growing in Christ, we still fall.
There have been those calling themselves Gods ministers or teachers (Not anyone here, or Ray I hasten to add), that have misused this scripture in the interpretation I set out at the start of my post that its Gods will that people murder, rape, perpetrate terrorism etc, "because its all Gods will, He's working it all". As Ray has pointed out on numerous occasions, these people who do such things are not doing the will of God.
--- End quote ---
Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?
Antaiwan
David:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 03, 2008, 01:09:23 PM ---
Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.
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