Submitting to the Pastors Idols of the heart

[saladking]

I’m often frustrated that I have been far too much of a pansy in how I dealt with my old Pastor.  I won’t mention his real name.  I’ll just refer to him as ‘Pastor.’
I’ll write most of his significant comments in bold.

I used to go to an Open Brethren Chapel, but haven’t been back to Church for over 2 years now.  About 2 and a half years ago before I left Church for good, the Pastor handed each of us chapel members a sheet of paper with a question for us all to answer.  The question was, ‘What would a visit from an angel of the Lord say to our chapel congregation?’  I felt reluctant about answering truthfully and was thinking about refusing to give any answer, but I felt goaded to and I couldn’t resist, in my flesh I suppose.  I wrote down,

“You don’t honour the Lord with your teaching.  You base salvation on human willingness rather than on God.  You make salvation dependent on human cooperation rather than on Christ.  Fear, dread and the threat of punishment are the essence of your gospel.  Where is the grace in believe or be dammed?  The Word Of God reveals that all will eventually be saved.”  I also presented some passages of scripture and briefly explained the true meaning of the word “Eternal”.

I felt it was a bad idea when the circumstances turned out that I ended up actually giving it to the pastor personally.  As I thought that we were all going to be anonymous.  He read it during the following week, and he certainly did respond in a short e-mail commenting, “thank you for answering the question sheet.”  At church the next week I saw him standing in the chapel foyer as I was leaving after the Church fellowship.  I said hello to him.  He responded and then immediately started commenting on what I had written.  He mentioned that he had quickly discredited all of the scripture that I had presented to him.  We stood there in the foyer and started discussing the issue.  I started to sweat and shake more and more as I fronted up to his reaction to it.  He actually said that he admired me for coming out and saying what I said.  He also said that he was deeply concerned.  And what was behind those words that I wrote? When I said that those on the Internet could explain Universal Salvation a lot better than I can, and that he would need to read quite a bit to see what I’m seeing.  He told me that he wouldn’t be prepared to spend much time on something that he can see is false.  He mentioned that he wanted to discourage me from believing that all will be saved.  Eventually I wasn’t able to talk because of such excessive shaking and a quivering voice.  I wasn’t able to think what to say, or have the courage to defend myself.  It got too much for me.  He decided to write to me in response to what I had just confessed, as he saw how uncomfortable I was just standing there in a verbal confrontation. 
These are some of the comments that the Pastor made in writing to me about a month after my confession to him.

“The old adage applies here, Convince a person against his will, and he is of the same opinion still.”  And then added, “I hope you are still open to see your error.  I hope the spirit of God will turn you from error.”

He also said, “One thing that the Universalists do, is ignore the important rule, ‘the scriptures must not contradict other scriptures.’  You’re only deluding yourself when you believe only the scriptures that fit your belief and ignore those verses that don’t fit.”
He also said, “One thing that I learnt early on was anyone that complicated the simplicity of Christ and added conditions and works to the completed work of Christ should be REFUTED AND AVOIDED. While this might not be the case with Universalism, I don’t see it as dissimilar.”
He added,  “Who is influencing you? My advice to you is that if the Internet is causing you to question the truth of God’s Word, better to leave it alone, rather than listen to lying tongues and accept a lie.  A belief in universalism will lead to destruction.”

He mentioned, “I think one of the flaws in your understanding is in the word, ‘all.’ You believe that the ‘all’ means ‘all without exception.’ But it really means ‘all without distinction,’ and the letter to the Colossians, Ephesians; Galatians etc are only talking to them.  Not to the whole of humanity.”

I regret what I did when I came face to face with him at church the following Sunday where he started speaking to me.  I remember saying, “You’ll be pleased to know that I now have my doubts about Universalism being the truth.  I guess I must be wrong since so few people believe in the Salvation of all.  Although so much scripture indicates that it is the truth.”  He said, “I’m concerned why you believed in it in the first place.  Look, if universalism is the truth, then I must submit to it, but I can’t see Christ rejectors getting through a back door at some future eon.  We might discuss this issue again sometime.  I’m sure we will.” 
I actually wanted him to show me that I was the one that was wrong because I wasn’t seeing what he seemed to be seeing, and I couldn’t handle the pressure of having to stand up for the truth.  Emotionally I needed him to be right and for me to be wrong.  Also, I felt trapped in needing to continue to go to church because I couldn’t face the isolation from having no fellowship connection with other Christians or much anyone else.  I really did not know that I would find myself so incredibly weak, lacking in confidence and unable to speak up with authority.  I felt I had already suffered painful persecution in the years prior to this situation because of my discovery of Jesus really being the saviour of the world.  He wasn’t bothering to have the time to speak to me anymore about anything really, so for 2 to 3 months I tried to convince myself that he was right.  In all this time I couldn’t let go of the thought that I may be right.  It wasn’t making sense.  The scriptures kept contradicting and no anti-universalist on the Internet was explaining universalism away scripturally.  I asked the pastor again that I was having trouble seeing Colossians 1:16-20 to mean something different to what it read.  He told me to send him an e-mail with the quote and he would answer it in about a month.  I did, and mentioned the different translations.  I got a short immediate reply. 

He mentioned, “Who am I to argue with the translators.  I don’t see your problem.”

I didn’t think I was going to get a proper reply from him, and sensed that he was getting annoyed because maybe Colossians 1:16-20 was hard for him to twist.
It became painfully clear to me that I had to admit and face the fact that I in fact was right all along.  The eventual salvation of all is the Gospel.  I had to walk away.  I acted in the flesh.  I left the church promptly, and started reading Ray’s lake of fire series all the way through, from beginning to end.  After a month I was shocked when I received a long e-mail from the Pastor.  He said that he was concerned that I was inclined towards the position of Universalism.  I wasn’t inclined towards it.  I knew it was the truth.  He said,

“Colossians 1:16-20 meant that all are reconciled, but not in a saving way, but instead they become the judged.” 

He then launched in to an attack on Universal Salvation (the truth), and bought in commentaries from Mac Arthur etc.  And then told me that if I still prefer to question, then he cannot be of any further help to me, as he doesn’t claim to be above the translators with super intelligence.
After all of his false accusations towards me, not once did I fight back.  I am not really proud of the fact that I didn’t answer him back.  I am annoyed too that he led me to believe that he was prepared to reason this out together with me.  When really all he wanted to do was show the usual dogmatism.
I waited two years, and then sent him a note just prior to Christmas with a Christmas card too.  This is what it read.

“Well Pastor, I have re-done some pretty intensive study of God’s Word, including the help of a Greek lexicon. ‘The eventual salvation of all’ IS the Gospel.  In a way I would like to believe what you believe, so that I might feel a fellowship connection with other Christians.  I am alone.  However, I’m also glad that I know the truth, and I have to follow that.  It’s impossible for me to be deceived now.  Thanks to you, Pastor you motivated me to study harder and now my faith is stronger than ever.  You have made statements without having your facts right.  You are so wrong Pastor.  I do not wish for you to respond to me anymore.  You have said what you wanted to say to me, and now you should be satisfied.  I will leave you to study for yourself.  I hope that it will be God’s will to turn you from error in your lifetime.  Anyway, have a nice Christmas.”

Sincerely David.

The Pastor responded to my letter later in the week.  He sent a Christmas card and in it he had written.

“Your concerns have led you on a long journey………and you do not wish to be persuaded, so I won’t try.  To take your position negates the reason for Christs coming.  How sad.”

I have no intention of returning to church.
What I really regret is both not being able to have the ability to stand up to him on the spot and most of all telling him that I must be wrong.  He may now always see that what I believe is unstable and that I am very gullible and can be talked into believing every wind of teaching.
I feel that I have failed.  I did not make a stand for the truth right from the start.  I suppose that God wouldn’t give me His work to do (God does not choose pansies to do His work).
However, the truth is God has made me this way.  He intended it to happen for his purposes that I can’t see.  God loves me, and I love myself.  Although my efforts were pathetic compared to most people.  I am still proud of myself that I at least was motivated to put myself out there and give it a go.  I could also be proud that at the time I practised a peacemaking resolution of the late Father Emmet McHardy – (I will never uphold my opinions to the extent of angering another).

My advice is that if you know already that you are the kind of person that doesn’t have the ability to get your point across in situations of disagreement, then don’t let yourselves get into situations where you may be faced with having to defend the Gospel.
What do you think on what I have just shared?

[Dave in Tenn]

With God all things are possible.  We're designed to fail, aren't we?  That's central to the Gospel of the Kingdom.  The flesh profits nothing.  We HAVE to rely on God for anything of value.  He calls the halt, the lame, and the blind so that HIS glory will be manifest.  Peter was no pansy (witness the sword-play in the Garden) yet he still denied even knowing the Lord.  You know, I'm not sure he was totally wrong there.  That didn't last a life-time, however...didn't even last very long at all.

God creates, God calls, God chooses, God gives faith, God grows the fruit of the Spirit, God gives the increase.  He's not done.

[Kat]

Hi Saladking,

You know you may have started out shaky, but you finished up with strength and resolution.  We all have to go through the process of learning how to stand up for what we believe.  We gain confidence through time and experience and I see God teaching you that through what happened.  I think you gain quite a bit from your experience with your pastor, so it was all for the good. 

Though your pastor spoke boldly about denying universalism, you just may have planted some seeds of doubt.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[legoman]

Hi Saladking,

That was a powerful testimony you wrote.  Even though in your eyes it look like you "failed" with your pastor, I believe it all happened as God intended and for a purpose.  Perhaps now you will have the strength to defend the truth in the future, and at least you have become convinced that UR is the truth.

Your pastor was spouting some pretty severe doublethink there ie. UR is full of contradictions, don't complicate the simplicity of Christ, etc.     LOL Pot - kettle - black...

Like Kat said its all a learning experience and you will be better for it.

Myself I've only had the courage to share this with my wife and Mom so far, and I think I've made a fair case at defending the truth... I'm leaving the ball (mostly) in their court now.  I don't think I could share this with my pastor (priest) right now, mainly because I don't know him that well and don't want to cause a whole lot of strife.  I'm still going to my church, but increasingly feel like an observer watching from the outside.

Kevin

[Akira329]

Hey Salad!
Here is some scripture to help you along the way:

2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)
2Ti 2:15  be diligent to present thyself approved to God--a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;(Youngs Literal)
We must study! Can't really emphasize that enough! Your pastor won't be the last smooth talker, forked tongued, double minded devil appearing as an angel of light to cross your path.
Learn the truth and you'll be able to spot a lie!

Remember also these verses
1Pe 3:13  And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16  Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Hope this helps you!
Antaiwan

[saladking]

Dave in tenn, I see that we are all used by God to accomplish his purposes to fail or succeed. failing does hurt though.  As we can't see what God knows.  We just have to trust Him (in our hurt too).

Falconnoo3, Thankyou for your quotes.  Something that I have observed in opposers to God's Word the truth.  They usually accuse others of what they are guilty of themselves.


Kat, I do hope that I might have shown the Pastor that because I listened to him and seriously considered his view.  And then eventually over time came back to seeing that "all being saved is the Gospel", he might see that there might be a lot of truth in my convictions.


Kevin, I can see that it has strengthened my faith, but as for the Pastor, I dispair.  Although I know that he has a lot to loose if he was to reject what he believes now.


Antaiwan, Thank you for selecting out those scriptures for me.  I know that we can't study too much.  I guess that it will always be really hard for me to be able to give an answer to everyman for the reason of the hope that I have, because of my shaking and quivering voice in case it's someone that wishes to attack what I share.

Thankyou all for your comments    Any more comments are most welcome.

Saladking.

[daywalker]

I'm often frustrated that I have been far too much of a pansy in how I dealt with my old Pastor.

And i dont blame ya frustrated, your pastor is a very smoothe talker or at least like to think sooo....notice the following observations.......... He whom speaks with fork tongue.

He also said, "One thing that the Universalists do, is ignore the important rule, 'the scriptures must not contradict other scriptures.'  You're only deluding yourself when you believe only the scriptures that fit your belief and ignore those verses that don't fit."

Your pastor states:"Universalists ignore the important rule, 'the scriptures must not contradict other scriptures.'

Ok Scriptures do not contradict..............ok got it and Spiritualy Understood..............but then

And in the same breathe States : "deluding yourself when you believe only the scriptures that fit your belief and ignore those verses that don't fit."

Do not ignore the Scriptures that contradict    COMON !! which is it.  do Scriputres contradict or not ? Yes or No ? anything else is from the evil one.

He also said, "One thing that I learnt early on was anyone that complicated the simplicity of Christ and added conditions and works to the completed work of Christ should be REFUTED AND AVOIDED. While this might not be the case with Universalism, I don't see it as dissimilar."

AHEMmmmm........according to the above statements in the 2nd quote box, your pastor just laid complications to the contradictions and so didn't your pastor just "complicated the simplicity of Christ and added conditions and works to the completed work of Christ should be REFUTED AND AVOIDED."

They just do not believe nor pay attention to their own words, much less those of God.

He added,  "Who is influencing you? My advice to you is that if the Internet is causing you to question the truth of God's Word, better to leave it alone, rather than listen to lying tongues and accept a lie.  A belief in universalism will lead to destruction."

And no Scripture given to the above Statement highlighted in red, for no wonder even the devil is changed to an angel of light.

case closed next...........

Rodger

Excellent rebuttal Rodger! Way to 'cut em off at the heels'! 


I also couldn't resist myself from chuckling when I read this:

"He mentioned, "Who am I to argue with the translators.  I don't see your problem."


Puh-Leaz! As if 'the translators' are superior Gods!!

Psalm 146:4: Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Romans 3:4: May it not be coming to that! Now let God be true, yet every man a liar...


Sorry, 'Pastor', you lose! AMEN 

Daywalker

[Falconn003]

When God opens your Eyes and Ears, with your Eyes open to see this sort coming a MILE away.

Like vultures flying over a dead carcass, so they too fly in circles over the DEAD INK, being seen miles away.

Be Watchful in earnest.

Peace
Rodger
PS not my rebuttal, i would have of the flesh, just told this pastor to bugger off.

[Marlene]

Salad King, You did what you thought you should. You learn alot from it. I to had thought about telling a Pastor I thought might be ready to hear the truth. However, I knew I was not ready to stand up to him. I just kept reading Ray's articles and found myself over time not wanting to talk to him. I know God drew me in here and if this man was questioning things God would find a way to draw him out and he did not need me.

Before, leaving my church of many year, while ill and not in church for a year I found myself questioning different believes, throughout Church history. None, of it made sense to me. They all believed to many different things. I saw too much division in there believes. I began to wonder what one of them were right.  While, I was doing some research I asked my pastor after my illness about some things and he said," It is not good to go in on the internet.
Even though he took most of his sermons from internet pastors websites. He told me he was glad I asked him so as not to get misled. I told him I would discern things for myself with Gods help. Well, he was not to happy with me. But, I never returned after he said, He did not know what anyone gave and then preached that if you stole from God he just might let you die. That, showed me that he sat in Gods seat.

I know how you feel about lack of fellowship. This included my Husbands whole family and they still go even knowing what he did. But, God Blessed me with fellowship of the most beautiful people I have ever known. My sister in-law-called me and said right before my surgery two weeks ago  that what I needed was good people praying for me.  I told her thanks for calling. I also, let her know I had plenty of people who were praying for me. I am sure she thinks I should be in church.

I have faced many trials since leaving that church, but I have real people in here. I have truths that I never dreamed of and we have Brothers and Sisters who all have been rejected like us. Wow, I am proud that you took your stand. You are no failure. God enabled you to believe these truths. You did what you felt led to and that does not make you a failure.

It still brings me to tears at all the prayers for me and pm's. Gosh, I went a whole year without only about three people from my old church calling me. I do have a good friend who goes there who is paralyzed quedstioning the churches. She wants to spend some time with me this spring and summer reading Rays articles. She thinks all being saved makes lots of sense. So, we never know who might call us. So be prepared. God has blessed me so much since I left Babyon. I really knew these people in here were praying.

In His Love,
Marlene

So Glad to have you here in the forum.

[saladking]

Thankyou marlene for understanding how I felt.  I got myself into the situation and did the best that my nerves could tolerate.
Thankyou too for sharing what you did.  That comment from your Pastor of, "It is not good to go on the Internet" makes me wonder why people naturally think that it is always the people that you know that are telling the truth.  Obviously it can also be just as likely that it is the people that you don't know that are telling the truth.
you also mentioned that "I would discern things for myself with God's help".  You were being a little assertive and your Pastor didn't take to kindly to that.  That is the thing that raises the alarm bells that it is time to get away fast.  Unless you have the strength to front up to him, because it will get heated.

I still keep in touch with one person from the Church.  But we don't talk about spiritual things.  We are just two single men enjoying each others company over lunch each week.
I don't think I have had anyone call me since I've left Church.  Only those that I have contacted myself.

Saladking 

[smeacham]

...
I feel that I have failed.  I did not make a stand for the truth right from the start.  I suppose that God wouldn't give me His work to do (God does not choose pansies to do His work).
...
What do you think on what I have just shared?

David (Saladking),

You experienced a tremendous blessing.  God's Holy Spirit spoke through you, especially when you did not know what to say.  You reminded me of Jesus at His trial.

Remember Mark 13:9,11,13: But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them...But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost....And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[saladking]

Steve, I was pondering over what you really meant.
I think I get it now.  The Pastor falsely accusing me of all these things that he is guilty of himself, and I never answered him back.  Yes, Jesus did do that too when He was on trial to be crucified.  He didn't answer back the insults hurled against Him that the people hurling the insults were guilty of themselves.

Saladking

[smeacham]

Exactly.

[Phil3:10]

Salad King.
Your testimony to your old pastor was bold. Not many of us are equipped to debate scripture with those who have been indoctrinated in the seminaries of Christendom. Very few of us are capable to teach and many of us will only make a situation worse if we try.
However, I do think you have found GOD'S will for your life and I can assure you that if you keep searching GOD will provide you the answers you need. I can think of no better place to search than L. Ray Smith and Bible-Truths.com. This forum will give you a wonderful contact with like-thinking lovers of CHRIST.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[daywalker]

"Your concerns have led you on a long journey.........and you do not wish to be persuaded, so I won't try.  To take your position negates the reason for Christs coming.  How sad."

Negates the reason for Christs coming? Why did Christ come again?

I John 4:14: And we have seen and DO TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

Oh, that's why! Is this what 'Pastor' testifies? Poppycock!

Now, that's SAD!


- Daywalker

[smeacham]

I actually believe we are all well-equipped to confront these Babylonian pastors.  The problem is, they are not equipped to listen or believe.  It doesn't matter how many obvious and clear scriptures we can present that show that God does not lie, God's word does not lie, God's word does not contradict, God is forming us in His image, Evil is necessary and by design, God will save the whole world, Hell is a doctrine of evil men, etc.  We can do this perfectly, but still not convince them, not because of us our our presentation.  It's because God has sealed their eyes and ears.

I know this to be true now, through my own experience.  When I was showing these things to the Jehovah's Witnesses, I do not believe I did a poor job.  I showed and expounded on the right scriptures.  I was well prepared.  I had the skill and experience of being a minister myself.  I did not stutter or shake.  I spoke with confidence and conviction.  I had rebuttals for every "contradictory" scripture they could produce.  None of it mattered.  They could not accept or believe it.

Steve

[daywalker]

I actually believe we are all well-equipped to confront these Babylonian pastors.  The problem is, they are not equipped to listen or believe.  It doesn't matter how many obvious and clear scriptures we can present that show that God does not lie, God's word does not lie, God's word does not contradict, God is forming us in His image, Evil is necessary and by design, God will save the whole world, Hell is a doctrine of evil men, etc.  We can do this perfectly, but still not convince them, not because of us our our presentation.  It's because God has sealed their eyes and ears.

I know this to be true now, through my own experience.  When I was showing these things to the Jehovah's Witnesses, I do not believe I did a poor job.  I showed and expounded on the right scriptures.  I was well prepared.  I had the skill and experience of being a minister myself.  I did not stutter or shake.  I spoke with confidence and conviction.  I had rebuttals for every "contradictory" scripture they could produce.  None of it mattered.  They could not accept or believe it.

Steve

So true Steve! Only those to whom it has been given, shall receive...

I am reading again Ray's article "Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word" [I think I started to awhile back, but never finished...], and the part about the "Two or Three Witnesses" of Scripture I believe is the strongest Truth to use when speaking with someone, especially a Pastor or someone of 'higher' learning in Church Doctrines.

The next time someone tells me, "The Bible says 'this'..", my immediate response will be, "Oh yeah? Show me TWO SCRIPTURES which support what you just said."

"Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell" Show me TWO Scriptures!
"People must choose Jesus on their own? Show me TWO Scriptures! .. Cuz I got TWO that say YOU CAN'T [Actually I got more  ]


Anyways, May God continue to bless all of us with more Wisdom and Spirit and Truth,

Daywalker.

[saladking]

Salad King.
Your testimony to your old pastor was bold. Not many of us are equipped to debate scripture with those who have been indoctrinated in the seminaries of Christendom. Very few of us are capable to teach and many of us will only make a situation worse if we try.
However, I do think you have found GOD'S will for your life and I can assure you that if you keep searching GOD will provide you the answers you need. I can think of no better place to search than L. Ray Smith and Bible-Truths.com. This forum will give you a wonderful contact with like-thinking lovers of CHRIST.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

Phil3:10, the reason that my testimony may seem bold is because I have an aggressive attitude of heart towards Reverends, Pastors, Ministers, Elders etc.  I don't like those that think they have the God given right to lord it over others when they are wrong.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I would disagree with you about me being gifted with debating minsters etc.  The situation has got worse when I have tried too. Maybe even in this case with my old Pastor.

Saladking

[saladking]

“Your concerns have led you on a long journey………and you do not wish to be persuaded, so I won’t try.  To take your position negates the reason for Christs coming.  How sad.”

Negates the reason for Christs coming? Why did Christ come again?

I John 4:14: And we have seen and DO TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

Oh, that's why! Is this what 'Pastor' testifies? Poppycock!

Now, that's SAD!


- Daywalker

Daywalker, Yes the Pastor just had to put that last little comment in to finish things off between me and him, didn't he?
As if his showing me of his strength of sticking to his guns might impress me.  Well he doesn't impress me by doing that.

Saladking

[Phil3:10]

SaladKing.
I do so agree with you concerning titles like Reverend, Bishop, Father and others. They want to make us think these titles elevate them above us plain folks. I like the teachings of a plain old roofer and trust his teachings more than any theologian or seminary trained preacher I have ever heard.
Phil3:10