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A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
mharrell08:
Harry,
If you state that Job 38:15-25 is a reference to what you are stating, please show us. As a matter of fact, please show any scriptures to validate what you are stating.
For instance, this quote...what scriptures are you basing these claims on?
--- Quote from: Harry on February 06, 2009, 08:14:09 AM ---
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Harry
--- End quote ---
Also, you stated you came to the website 2 weeks ago. How do you know that all these 'matters of your personal journey of many years' are in agreement or contrary to Ray's teaching in only 2 weeks? Where are the 2-3 scriptural witnesses as well as their spiritual match (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm [#6 & 7])? These are just some of the basic things that are taught by the scriptures that Ray has taught and pointed out.
Marques
smeacham:
Hi Harry,
Please interpret what I say as being said in love, with gentleness and respect (hard to infer in written conversation)...
Your question and line of reasoning is interesting, but makes me uncomfortable. It's not passing my "smell test." We've learned not to trust our own reasoning, but rather to rely on 2 or 3 scriptures that spiritually match to establish a truth. THIS is what sets Ray's style of teaching apart. I'm learning to do it myself, but it's awfully hard.
Since Ray hasn't published anything on this subject, we're on THIN ICE discussing it to such detail. Without using scriptures to find spiritual matches, I very much feel like we're just floating on THIN AIR. I suggest that we get our feet on the ground, and quickly, before anyone does or says something we'll regret.
Let me just add, Harry, from experience - do not be in a hurry to teach. I've been in that position for years, and regret so much of what I've taught others now that I know better. I praise God for keeping my mouth closed on several occasions, too!
Steve
Kat:
Hi Steve,
I think you have made some really good points. Without Scripture backing up what we say, we have no ground to stand on and it becomes a slippery slope. That's why we have a rule to not bring in your own ideas/teaching.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ninny:
Kat, that is what makes life so much easier on this forum! We are really protected here from getting sidetracked by a lot of other teachings. Goodness knows there is enough here to study for all of us! Sticking to what Ray teaches on this forum is what it's all about! Thanks! :D We all like to give our own opinions and ideas, but we have to be careful not to cross the line into teaching! I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, it's just true!
Kathy ;)
Akira329:
Hey Harry!
I want to try this again. Thanks for elaborating more ;)
If there are good points to be had I want them.
--- Quote from: Harry on February 06, 2009, 08:14:09 AM ---
Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).
Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.
I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns. Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing.
Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy.
Why would I do that?
Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is).
Because God is all in all.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
But it helps me to look at the core of the process.
We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy.
We have this?? So our positive and negative energy is free to move about? Or our good and evil is unbounded having no limits or is it limited?
Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage.
Well you just told me to think of them as good and evil
Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy.
Now righteousness has boundaries. In what way? In who can receive it and in who cannot?
How can anything be bound in that which is boundless?
I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms.
I don't see how Job makes reference to any of these statements you have made.
I will meditate more on this one.
Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience. Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible.
On earth or in Heaven??
Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal but walking after the spirit..hopefully everyone :-) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness.
Are you comparing physical with spiritual?
Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire )
Is there an example of this in scripture?
and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife).
What is wrong with wanting pleasure? I take great pleasure in the Law of God(the spiritual Law)
I'm sorry guys I know this is going to set off a lot of wives..... just tell her to cool down..God has it all worked out...and He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think ( Eph 3:20) Here is the example in a nutshell. Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad. God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Again are you comparing physical with spiritual?
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Not really, I feel something is missing? Thanks for trying to explain your points Harry but I need scripture and there is a lot of carnal thinking going on here and I was doing some myself. I think I know what your saying but its not quite there yet. I don't see the good points people are eluding to.
Harry
--- End quote ---
Thanks for sharing
I hope you continue to do so! :)
Antaiwan
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