who to pray to??

[newgene87]

I've been battling this for a lil while now. Ever since Ive been set free from the "God consists of a Trinity" mindset; now I wonder who do we pray to. I see from Jesus example, we are to start, "Our Father..." so that's to the father. And I also take into mind that was before his ressurrection. So his position is higher than at that time: so since Jesus was a Rabbi, The Jews knew to refer to God as Father (Deut 32:6)(Jer31:9)Now, Jesus goes on to say, "I am the way the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me" (John14:6) so that puts Christ in the forefront. So do we pray to Jesus, the Son of God, also the Mediater?  Or do we pray to the Father? I hope the question makes some type of sense. And I've read Rays paper on prayer and that's great. But still, so we pray to the Father or the Son? Thanks

[mharrell08]

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13571.0.html

Similar thread and subject.

[newgene87]

I've read that thread and it still doesn't do it for me. Not so much do I use the magic phrase "in Jesus Name" but who am I talking to when I pray: the Father or Jesus Himself. Since He sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb1:3). I know that can crossrelate if  Jesus IS the Father, so I'm not trying to go there cuz I know Ray is in the works of that wonderful teaching. But just for now, who do I pray to?

[mharrell08]

I've read that thread and it still doesn't do it for me. Not so much do I use the magic phrase "in Jesus Name" but who am I talking to when I pray: the Father or Jesus Himself.

The same principle applies...it's superstitious to believe you must pray to one or the other. No one knows the Father except the Son and vice versa [Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 6:44, John 14:6]. To pray to One is to pray to the Other, to know One is to know the Other, to believe in One is to believe in the Other, etc.



Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello newgene87

I don't know how much this can help you out. I can only share what I can share.

Maybe it might help you find comfort and courage to know that I too have been through this painful maize of shadows and doubts, fears and timidity of not knowing who to pray to and not wanting to be incorrect or to supposedly offend the Father if I address prayer to the Son or to overstep the mark if I go over the head of the Son, to pray to the Father. I learned that such thinking is nonsense and only comes out of the limited thinking of a mind bent on leaning on its own understanding and desire to follow human protocols that are fear driven.

I subsequently wondered if you pray to Christ, would the Father of Jesus not know what you said.....or if you pray to the Father of Jesus, would Christ not know what you said? Of course not~

If you pray to Jesus Christ, would the Father be upset or feel diminished, less important or ignored? Is God who made Jesus Christ, who is to save us all, so little? Of course not ~ 

Father and Son are Spirit.  The two are One.

Maybe it might help if you speak to both and do as the one, which is as Jesus did. This is not a formula or quick fix. The mind may still  try to beat you up and make you fear that you are doing something wrong and offending someone pretty high up in Heaven, which is nonsense too~

It might help to be doing as Jesus did....Pray to the Father of Jesus, as Jesus Himself did, in imitation of Jesus, knowing that only through the Spirit of Christ in you, can you ever approach the Father of all. 

So, not ignoring Jesus or elbowing Him out of the way, but by imitating Him, in worshipful obedience in great reverence and gratitude  for Him, ..continue being as the follower of Jesus, to copy your big Brother. 

Enter into your closet, which is you, your self, and speak to Father, in the act of obedience to Jesus, who told you to do so.

Where the Father is, the Son is too. Don't fret.

Obey, Pray and Believe are not do it yourself tools of the trade. I know how the mind can disturb and confuse and upset our allegiance to both Father and Son. Which came first...the chicken or the egg...kind of confusion the mind likes to play.

Father and Son are one. Don't let the trickery of the limited mind, play fear and doubting tricks with your heart or soul. Who are you going to believe?...your mind or Jesus?

Father hears your thoughts, knows all and everyone and everything,  and Son guides your heart, for He is the Author and Finisher of your Faith. If that doesn't help...then patience, patience, patience....pray anyway~ Don't lean on the limited understanding of the human mind. The Mind of Christ is not subject to human limits and fears.

Nothing escapes Father. He is still going to hear you, know exactly where and how you are, and what you are doing and thinking. Be sure, nothing can separate you from His Love.

Arc

[Gina]

Excellent replies.  I used to worry about that stuff too and then it occurred to me how many prayers have been answered that I addressed to Jesus.

Ray's study on Are You Afraid of God helped me see that I was afraid of God (the Father). But Father and son are exactly alike in purpose, goal/aim and desire:  to save all humanity.  

They're going to respond to prayers the way the other would.

Some have pointed out correctly that Jesus prays to the Father and instructs us to do that.

But then I thought, what if I do pray to Jesus having prayed that way out of habit for so many years rather than address the Father?  What's the difference seeing the two are one in spirit?  It's exasperating to think about sometimes.  
 
Eph 6:4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up [as opposed to _down, haha] in the training and instruction of the Lord.

Nome sayin?

[John from Kentucky]

Ray really got me thinking when he brought up this "Enigma of God" subject---Who and What is God?  What food for thought!

When I was a youth, I was a Catholic, and the good nuns taught me and I believed God was a trinity.

I was in the Worldwide Church of God for about 25 years and I thought God was a binity, two Gods in one, the Father and the Son.

Now, I think there is One God.  That the Father and Jesus are One and the Same.  I am not a teacher.  I don't yet know the right words.  The Father and Jesus seem to be different ? of the One God.  The Father is preeminent.  Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  We go to the Father through Jesus.  Jesus prayed to the Father.  So, I guess that is good enough for me.

Now that I think God is One, prayer is easier.  It concentrates the mind.  Thinking that there were two Gods and praying to two Gods seemed a little crazy.

[newgene87]

That was beautiful arc and you were absolutely speaking my mind. That is exactly how I felt about praying to Jesus I felt I was diminishing the Father. Thank you all. You helped me out alot

[Revilonivek]

Can Jesus be the son of God and still be God himself? that is the question for me. Have to wait till Ray explains in his upcoming paper.  The bible says we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Not God himself? I Jesus didn't say for us to pray to Jesus. He said to pray to the Father. I think it's a matter of understanding who the Father is, in order to know how to Pray unconditionally. Have to wait till Ray explains.  Keep in mind,  In the new testament, Jesus always referred himself as the prophet. Prophet is the highest office next to God. Maybe God came as the Son, to demote himself lower to the level of man and get the message across. If so, then who was doing the talking to Jesus when He prayed, got baptized, and talked to at the cross? It's mind boggling if you ask me.. I'm ready for some clarification.

Denise

[Deborah-Leigh]

So glad everyone came together to give very beautiful answers to you newgene87 ~ 

[Kat]

For me it is simple I pray to God, as Jesus said "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30 ) Jesus Christ is "the image" we need to see of an INVISIBLE God.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

John 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9  Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Can Jesus be the son of God and still be God himself?

The answer has to be yes! Not a different being like physical human beings (father and son), but Son is God's explanation of what Jesus, an extention of Himself, "His image" is.  Here is a question, why did Jesus pray out loud to "the Father?"

John 11:42  And I know that You hear Me always, but because of the people who stand by I said it, so that they may believe that You have sent Me.

Everything that He did He did as an example for people to see, they watched His every move, hung onto every word that He said, rightly so.  Here are some interesting Scripture.

Act 5:30  and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree; 31  this ONE God, a Prince and a Savior, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;

Jude 1:25  to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty and might and authority, even now and forever. Amen.

1Co 8:6  yet to us is ONE God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;

Eph 4:4 There is ONE body and ONE Spirit... v.5  ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, v.6  ONE GOD and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We can see right in the Scripture that Jesus states His relationship to the Father.

John 10:30  I and the Father are ONE!

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

Beautiful, Kat.

[Revilonivek]

For me it is simple I pray to God, as Jesus said "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30 ) Jesus Christ is "the image" we need to see of an INVISIBLE God.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

John 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9  Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Can Jesus be the son of God and still be God himself?

The answer has to be yes! Not a different being like physical human beings (father and son), but Son is God's explanation of what Jesus, an extention of Himself, "His image" is.  Here is a question, why did Jesus pray out loud to "the Father?"

John 11:42  And I know that You hear Me always, but because of the people who stand by I said it, so that they may believe that You have sent Me.

Everything that He did He did as an example for people to see, they watched His every move, hung onto every word that He said, rightly so.  Here are some interesting Scripture.

Act 5:30  and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree; 31  this ONE God, a Prince and a Savior, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;

Jude 1:25  to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty and might and authority, even now and forever. Amen.

1Co 8:6  yet to us is ONE God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;

Eph 4:4 There is ONE body and ONE Spirit... v.5  ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, v.6  ONE GOD and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We can see right in the Scripture that Jesus states His relationship to the Father.

John 10:30  I and the Father are ONE!

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Yes... There are also another scriptures that are puzzling like for example: Jesus said we must be one with God as well. Does that mean we are God himself? No.

If Jesus is GOd himself. Why is Jesus sitting on the Father's right hand?

Romans 8:34
King James Version (KJV)
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In Johns 17,

Notice this: 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prays this prayer-  for humanity- He prays that we become one with the Father. Does that mean we are the Father? I think what He meant is that because Jesus is perfect, of like mind with the Father-  You see the Father in him. Doesn't necessarily mean he is the Father himself. He often denied in scripture that he is the Father.
Even scriptures say Jesus sits  next to  his Father in Heaven. Often told us to pray to the Father, not him.

John 17

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

You see why I'm so confused?

Denise

[Gina]

I can totally empathize with you, Denise.  It's good that you're not afraid to ask questions.  

I can't tell you how many times I written Ray with some annoyance over something he said or has written.  He's like, just give it time and you'll see.  And he always turned out to be right--when it comes to the things I'm particularly concerned with, not that he's never said anything that he's had to later correct--though honestly I can't think of what those things were at the moment.  It's past history I guess.

There have been times when I've been like, eh- whatever--I'm done with B-T.  But then I'm like, but where in the heck am I gonna go??!  

Ahhh!!  Sometimes the frustration of not understanding something just makes me want to bang my head against a wall.  I think I've done that once.  No, really!

I realized during a particularly hard event recently that it is God Who I always want to run to when things are topsy-tervy.  I'm not going to turn to the devil, the world, or atheists -- they sure as you-know-what don't have the answers.  

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm glad you're here.

[River]

It is no longer about a name for me, what we recognize our God by is not a name anyhow. Jesus is the WAY and his disciples were followers of this WAY were they not? The scriptures speak of this WAY.
I feel sorry for people who suffer from amnesia, poor souls can't connect to God anymore.   Just joking!  But hey we know Saul knew the "name" of the only true God but yet he didn't seem to know who knocked him off his high horse right? Well to me at least that is because he didn't know HIM and there is a big difference.

1 John 4:6

God is love

1 John 1:5

God is light

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Matthew 7:16

You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

John 14:7

If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.

[Gina]

 Bravo, Riverrrrr!!!

[Kat]

Hi Denise,

I will not hesitate to say that this is a complicated and difficult subject and I do not have any of the answers that's for sure. I am trying to look at this with an open mind, to the Spirit of course, and not let all the religion I have heard impede my understanding. I have read all the Scriptures you have presented many times and yes it gets confusing.

How long has Ray been working on his paper on this subject? We are not going to figure this out here, we are just sharing opinions and that's all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hey Denise

Chew on this a little bit. It's GREAT news! 

We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn't God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It's the 'We' and the 'Us.' Elohim is the 'We' and the 'Us.'   So it's BOTH!

You got to get it out of your head that God is the name of Jesus' Father. God is not the name of Jesus' Father. God is a title that is used even by the pagans.   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

[Gina]

Hey Denise

Chew on this a little bit. It's GREAT news!  

We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn't God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It's the 'We' and the 'Us.' Elohim is the 'We' and the 'Us.'   So it's BOTH!

You got to get it out of your head that God is the name of Jesus' Father. God is not the name of Jesus' Father. God is a title that is used even by the pagans.   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Deb, How do you do it?!   

[Revilonivek]

Deb, River and Gina,


I think it's a matter of understanding God..It takes time..I am sure that once we do, it would make total sense. I read somewhere that Ray says God is a title, So probably the term God is an unity consciousness.. One consciousness. Of like mindedness in everything, In One.. Scriptures say the Father wants us to be part of the One.. But my question is.. Is Jesus the Father? Jesus often said we are to pray to the Father, Not him. That's the thing. Jesus and the Father are one because they are united in Oneness and prays from heaven that we  unite as one with them too one day.   Even Father created Jesus, the first creation among many creations. Doesn't necessarily mean Jesus is the Father himself?  That's my question. Is Jesus the Father, or are they just ONE- they think in likeness of everything, an reflection of each other, they have the same beliefs, notions, same thinking, etc and they want us to be like them in everything, hence, creating us in the image of the Father. Doesn't mean we are Father himself. simply a reflection of the father? Even scripture says Father is not material. that means He doesn't eat. He doesn't drink. Doesn't sleep, and so on..But like  River pointed out scriptures that say The father is love, light and everyone who knows him knows that voice or instinct.  I look forward to Ray's paper.