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Eternal Life not promised?

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chrissiela:

--- Quote from: jerreye ---Oh, but it isn't It is a spiritual resurrection.

There is a physical body (which we have NOW) and there is a spiritual body (when does this happen?). Do you now posses your spiritual body, Rocky, or will this happen in the future, at THE resurrection?
--- End quote ---


jerreye,

What about the "inner man" that is born of the spirit and that walks after the spirit and not after the flesh?

Paul says that we are NO LONGER in the flesh, as those who are IN THE FLESH cannot please God. ( Rom 8 )

What does it mean "the redemption of the BODY"? Or to have our MORTAL bodies quickened? What does it mean to have this mortal PUT ON immoratlity and this corruption PUT ON incorruption. This is addressing something that we "put on"... not something that we "take off".

We are not waiting to be "unclothed"; we are waiting to be "clothed upon". (2 Cor 5)

Blessings,
Chrissie

Daniel:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption[/u] of the transgressions that were under the first testament[/b], they "which are called" might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.[/b]

Heres words to think about as to how the definition of these are used elsewhere in scripture to convey the same thought .

Redemption

1) a releasing effected by payment of ransom (The effectual working of His power, Christ of effect or to no effecct?)

a) redemption[/b], deliverance[/u] (From?)

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom (Liberation? Set free? for Liberty?)



Ephesians 1:14 Which is "the earnest of our inheritance" until"the redemption" of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1) a preserving, a preservation (preserving body soul and spirit?)

2) possession, one's own property[/u] (not our own?)

3) an obtaining (called to obtain?)

2Thes 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of[/b] the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when "his glory" shall be revealed, "ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (where is His glory revealed?)

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Phil 3:21 Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto "his glorious body", according to the working "whereby" he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that "your body" is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Thes 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

1Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.[/u]

1Peter 1:23 "Being born again", not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:13 "Which were born", not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If then being born of incorruptible (because corruptible cannot inherit incorruptible) where is this shown as occuring?

And if Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God but above declares that though (through carnal eyes we are) why does the verse seem to ignore the obvious and speak to the otherwise? It is not acknowledging these things as we would normally understand it. To the contrary it appears.

If and when MORTAL "PUTS ON" Immortality, what would that "look like"? Seems corruptible "PUTS ON" incorruptible, and the verse above acknowledges a birth to the same effect.

The Creature was subject to vanity and was in bondage to corruption (elsewhere saying of corruption one has escaped the corruption of the world through lust). What then does "that" mean if one has been "liberated" within the bounds spoken of concerning the NEW Creature verses THE Creature. One seems subjected in hope the other "liberated". Sounds an alot like the a releasing effected by payment of ransom defined within the word of "redemption".

Just some things to consider, that He who IS "The Resurrection" who always IS hath delivered (from so great a death) He doth deliver and will yet deliver. Look also at "delivered" as a word pertaining to redemption aas well. In Christ in whom these things be of. Both in past tense (was) present tense (is) and future tense (will be) in relation to what He is made unto us for. He hath power or He does not. His power works in the present or it does not. He IS or He simply was and will be but would that not be holding to a form of godliness denying His power and Him who IS? Admonished that we must believe HE "IS".

Just a few things to ask oneself thats all

Peace

Daniel

chrissiela:

--- Quote ---The resurrection has NOT taken place. Paul makes it clear that it is in the future.
--- End quote ---


Paul walked “as though� he has not already attained the resurrection of the dead (Phi 3:12), as though he were still striving for it, that he MIGHT ATTAIN it. That does not mean that he has NOT attained it; it means that he doesn’t “count� himself as having already attained it (verse 13). And HE tells US ALSO to “be thus minded�.

Because what did Jesus say?

Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.[/list:u]

Paul knew and understood that we must endure to the end; that we are running “a race� and that there would be many who would “fall away� or be “lead astray�; that wolves would come in to devour the flock.

So at what point can someone say “I have reached the goal�? At what point can someone (even Paul) say “I have attained�?

At NO point!! It is all by the will and the power of God.

He even tells us:

Phi 3:16  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.[/list:u]

What Rule? Walk “as though� you HAVE NOT already attained, either were already perfected. Count NOT yourself to ALREADY have apprehended. In other words... endure to the end.

Very much like what Jesus said: If you say that you can see, your sin REMAINS.

He goes on to point out that the Lord will change “our vile body�, that it may be fashioned after His glorious body.

The Son of God if being formed IN US… IN these “vile bodies�. We are not being “unclothed�, we are being “clothed upon�. (2 Cor 5)

Yes, one day we will all die physically and rid ourselves of this body of flesh, this body of death. But Christ did not come to tell us how we can have life LATER. HE came to GIVE US LIFE NOW. Because unless we eat of HIS flesh and drink of HIS blood, we have NO LIFE IN US.

Christ came TO THE DEAD, to bring LIFE. What has that to do with the PHYSICALLY dead?

He used physical healings and physical resurrections as “examples� of spiritual truths.

The blind are made to see; the deaf are made to hear; the lame are made to walk; and THE DEAD ARE RAISED. He performed all those miracles physically to indicate the miracles that He would perform spiritually, by the power of the Holy Spirit, after His crucifixion and resurrection.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. That is why whether was wake or sleep we live TOGETHER WITH HIM. That is how the tares and the wheat grow TOGETHER UNTIL HARVEST. That is why Christ died and was resurrected and revived… so that He would be Lord of BOTH the living and the dead. (Not the PHYSICALLY DEAD, those who have “no life in them�; those who “sleep�, the “tares�.)

Paul said that the DEAD in Christ shall rise first. How does this apply to the elect who are PHYSICALLY DEAD, when the scriptures tell us that the last will be FIRST and the first will be LAST and that at the time of harvest THE TARES WILL BE GATHERED FIRST?

The “dead in Christ� that RISE FIRST are the “tares�; those that sleep. Paul said that WE will NOT PREVENT “those that sleep�. He's not talking about those who are PHYSICALLY dead... he's talking about those who also remain who have not passed from death unto life; those who are not a part of the first resurrection, receiving life now... passing from the NIGHT into THE DAY.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (they have no hope, because they are 'dead', 'asleep'... though physically alive.)

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.[/list:u]

Them that are “asleep� are not physically dead people; they are they who are walking in darkness, not having passed from death unto life, not knowing the love of God or one another.

And “those who are ALIVE and remain� (those who are dead ALSO “remain�) will not prevent them; for they will be caught up first (the tares are harvested FIRST; Mat 13:30). THEN “those who are alive and remain" will be caught up together with them.

As I see it now, the last trump has already begun to sound and the dead are being raised to life. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection (those who pass from death unto life NOW) for the second death will have no power over them. For they will be kings and priests and shall reign with Christ a thousand years in His kingdom.

Jesus said: “my kingdom is NOT of this world�.

And what of this?

Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 1:6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.[/list:u]

The book of Revelation is about the revelation or revealing of Christ... who comes as a thief IN THE NIGHT.

The things that are written in the book that we are to KEEP, we are keeping NOW. And the promises that are made "to those who overcome" are being fulfilled now, as I see it.

How else can you explain how the TARES are harvest first. If you claim the elect are resurrected first?

Didn’t the Jews miss the coming of their Messiah because they were looking for a physical kingdom? How is our looking for a physical kingdom, with a hope of being made literal kings and priests in it any different?

And how else can you explain:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.[/list:u]

That fits perfectly together with what Paul said about those who are ASLEEP (or the DEAD in Christ) shall RISE FIRST... THEN those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them.... if you understand that BOTH categories of people are PHYSICALLY alive, some are "awake" (living in THE DAY) and some are "asleep" (walking in THE NIGHT; those who sleep sleep at night).

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.[/list:u]

Both the wheat and the tares grow together til harvest. The tares are harvested first. Please someone explain to me how that can be if the resurrection is yet future and the "elect" are resurrected first, long (a symbolic thousand years) before the tares/wicked?


Blessings,
Chrissie

bobf:
Chrissie,

How can the gathering and burning of the tares be considered a resurrection?   They are gathered out of the kingdom, not into it.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The pharisees do not precede the publicans & sinners into the kingdom.  The publicans & sinners precede and lead the pharisees into the kingdom.

jerreye:
Chrissie, you wrote:


--- Quote ---jerreye,

I never said that you said that the resurrection is past. I understood your point.

My point was that no one here has said it is past and that is the accusation being made.

Chrissie
--- End quote ---


Noone said this directly. Plus, I didn't make a direct "accusation" either. In fact, if you read the post I made a comment in brackets stating that I was NOT accusing him of stating that.

However, it WAS indirectly claimed that the "resurrection" "IS" and...."WAS" (WAS is a PAST-TENSE word that means ALREADY HAPPENED). Do you believe that THE resurrection spoken of in Revelation has ALREADY HAPPENED to YOU? Paul says NO. So do I.

I have stated a number of times in my posts that we have the EARNEST (down-payment) of God's SPIRIT, NOT the fullness. We are NOT FULLY spiritual at this time, even though SIN no longer has complete dominion over you, you STILL sin, Chrissie, do you not?

Do you think you are fully spiritual at this time? Are you not going to die? When your body dies, what happens to "the real YOU" directly after? Are you immediately in God's pressence? Isn't there a LITERAL resurrection from your DEATH condition that you WILL be in after your body expires? Will you not "sleep the sleep of DEATH"?

Perhaps we are both not understanding each other!  :shock:

Here is what I believe...I believe that we have God's spirit, but ONLY in down-payment. We are spiritually sustained by that spirit for the remainder of our physical life. There WILL be a time that we all physically DIE. We will SLEEP the sleep of death and will be called OUT of that death condition (Hades) in the RESURRECTION (which is where we receive the FULLNESS, which includes a new spiritual body), which has NOT yet taken place. It will take place in the future.

Isn't this what you believe? If not, what part?

God Bless,
Jeremy

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