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Accountable, responsible
9440geoff:
Hi Roy,
This is an excellent thread so thanks for starting it. With so many excellent answers I'm reluctant to try to add anything. However, the following has helped me to understand sin a little better.
In French the verb 'to lust' and the verb 'to covet' is the same, i.e. 'convoiter'.
The noun 'convoitise' means 'greed ', 'lust', or 'covetousness'.
Ray has said of Eve
--- Quote ---It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."
--- End quote ---
So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.
But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.
Geoff
soberxp:
--- Quote from: 9440geoff on December 25, 2009, 11:56:52 AM ---
So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.
But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.
Geoff
--- End quote ---
good point.
Adam n Eve ,they didn't know good n evil ,they must pure in heart,except GOD has told them never eat forbidden fruit,but never told why.P.S when you eat of it you will surely die. why ???
Did Eve ever think "why" n "then what"?or Did she have ALREADY sinned by think of "why".I dunno.
but I know that Eve didn't know the serpent is evil,they are too pure to discriminate good from bad ones.
How do you know good n evil n what's means die ,when you didnt know good n evil n what's means die.even god told them:"GEN 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." "they didnt know good n evil n what's means die!!!!!!
is this a hard one to understand the logic?
here is another hard one .
GEN 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.
trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.
Roy Martin:
Thank you Geoff,
I've been trying to come up with an analogy that will put this into perceptive for me, and just can't seem to come up with one that fits. I have read, and am still re-reading Myth Of Freewill over and over. I read all the things we can't do of our own; not even a single thought, and I believe all of it about freewill. The proof is undeniable. The answer seems to be in this weak heart we have. I ask myself, what is in a weak heart? This is where covetousness comes from. This is where all the bad things come from. Sin is in there.God gave us this weak heart. It was in Eve, but apparently she didn't know, and then comes Satan sent by God to make it sprout or surface so to speak.
I know that God knows what Hes doing, and its all good. I know that I'm here right now communicating with all of you because of God, even my thoughts on this topic are not of my own; the hunger to understand everything about this topic, not just most of it, but all of it. I also have thoughts that wants to just shut it down and not give it any more thought as Silvia suggested I do.
I think and feel I have my answer, but all of the replies and comments gives me more food to chew on that opens doors to other areas of thought that all seems to tie in to this circle that leads to something in the middle of this circle that contains the treasure with more than I was looking for, you know, like an extra bonus kind of thing. Its all about understanding that will stick, that I can cling to, that doesn't slip through my hands like sand, having to keep picking it up over and over.
I want to be like all of you that say you have it and understand it. Some of you say you still struggle with it from time to time. Well I want it super glued to my heart with complete understanding.
Love to All
Roy
Kat:
Hi Roy,
I found these emails, each one has an aspect that needs to be understood, that should give you a little more to chew on.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ------------------------------
Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.
And like many Scriptures in God's Word, the Christian World understand little about spiritual things. Furthermore, when the Scriptures suggest that God is and will be triumphant and victorious over ALL ENEMIES, the theologians of this world are quick to reel God in and diminish often to ought the grand declarations of God and His accomplishments and blessings. Witness their turning I Tim. 2:4,
"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH,"
into an unattainable "WEAK WISH."
Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:08)?
This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18. After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."
There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8. Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse: "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind." So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.
Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES." Hope I didn't loose you yet.
And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will. God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25). Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."
Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES. Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL. Just how did He do this? (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship! "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?
The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish? EVERYTHING! John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF! And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!
And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read:
"And he gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some , evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).
And finally this:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" Luke 4:18-19 & 21).
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -----
Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?
After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."
Then James comes along and says
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MAN." (James 1:13).
And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to
"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!
What is going on here?
Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.
First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."
"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).
"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).
"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).
"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).
From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.
And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.
But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.
The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).
The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."
Hope that helps a little.
God be with you,
Ray
Deborah-Leigh:
Until I found that word PREFERENCES that Ray introduced into one of his teachings on this subject of free-will, I too was going around in circles, sensing something bigger that I was not grasping.
What we PREFER reflects our spiritual condition.
We begin in spiritual weakness.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to VANITY
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of VANITY, they lure through the lusts of the flesh, by unbridled lust, the ones who were escaping from those who live in error;
See what Kat has brought for consideration in Rays teachings quote....
We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"—
Who puts us IN IT? God does! If God INTENDS anything then it is going to be exactly what God intends. No weak wishes or wiggle room out of it either!
Our preferences begin with us wanting to get into trouble. We like to get in and out of trouble. We enjoy it! We start life as “automatic sinning machines” L Ray Smith.
God changes us through our circumstances and through His goodness He brings us to repentance for enjoying evil. We go from automatic sinning machines to deliberate children conformed by God into HIS image. How does God conform us? Through trials and tribulations, through judgment and Grace, through the Goodness of God.
Isa 29:24 Those who erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and those who murmured shall learn doctrine.
Arc
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