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Luke 23:34 - Ray's comments added, last post
stanstillwhite:
That is TRUTH, John. That is TRUTH!! Even now it God working His will in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Php 2:13
Sometimes I wonder why we will even be rewarded. Its All HIM. I think we get rewarded if we keep smiling through it and don't grumble...to much.
Stan
G. Driggs:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on August 22, 2011, 05:37:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: G. Driggs on August 22, 2011, 02:04:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2011, 03:51:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: G. Driggs on August 20, 2011, 10:48:20 PM ---Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
--- End quote ---
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
--- End quote ---
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
--- End quote ---
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
We humans have an exceedingly weak heart. We all have sinned, willingly. We are not innocent. There is no good in us. We cannot even take the next breath when God has decided we have had our last breath. We are dust.
We did not have the power to kill our Creator, the Son of God. God the Father is responsible for that just like He is responsible for everything that has ever been.
--- End quote ---
I do not know anywhere in Scriptures where it says God killed His Son, but it does say Jesus volunteered.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Because of our sins.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Is it just me or does this sound like EVERYBODY?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you have a problem it's not with me, it's with the Word of God. I agree God is responsible, but you seem to quite often deny the world is accountable. God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
G.Driggs
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: G. Driggs on August 22, 2011, 11:26:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on August 22, 2011, 05:37:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: G. Driggs on August 22, 2011, 02:04:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2011, 03:51:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: G. Driggs on August 20, 2011, 10:48:20 PM ---Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
--- End quote ---
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
--- End quote ---
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
--- End quote ---
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
We humans have an exceedingly weak heart. We all have sinned, willingly. We are not innocent. There is no good in us. We cannot even take the next breath when God has decided we have had our last breath. We are dust.
We did not have the power to kill our Creator, the Son of God. God the Father is responsible for that just like He is responsible for everything that has ever been.
--- End quote ---
I do not know anywhere in Scriptures where it says God killed His Son, but it does say Jesus volunteered.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Because of our sins.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Is it just me or does this sound like EVERYBODY?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you have a problem it's not with me, it's with the Word of God. I agree God is responsible, but you seem to quite often deny the world is accountable. God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
G.Driggs
--- End quote ---
My friend, I do not have a problem with you. Nor with the Word of God. I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions. I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook". Jesus is our Savior. He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment. Everyone gets saved.
As to the Father taking Jesus' life. Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing? It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus. The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us. No one can take anything out of His Hands.
DougE6:
--- Quote ---God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
--- End quote ---
Wow I wished I had said that ;D You have said succintly what I have tried to say before in probably too many words.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Does this scripture at the minimum, imply that we all did crucify the Son of God? Cause it seems to be saying that is possible to crucify the Son of God afresh; doesn't "crucify to themselves afresh" imply that God will not tolerate it being done by us again? Just putting it out there. here, of course, we are speaking in the relative, not the absolute. God will not allow Christ to be put to open shame, and be crucified afresh, even metaphorically... I think this is a STRONG admonition for holiness and reverence and gratefulness and thankfulness for the immense work done at that terrible cross, that we all did corporately, and we will all reap the everlasting benefits from. Thank God for the cross.
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." G Driggs
--- End quote ---
--- Quote --- I do not agree with that statement. John from Kentucky
--- End quote ---
George is right John. We have all been guilty of crucifying Jesus.You, me, and every human being that has ever lived.The Father by design caused to happen the death of our Lord but that does not mean that we all individually did not have part in it.
Just who do you think are the kings of the earth and the rulers gathered against the Lord? If we are to live by every word then that would leave no one out. If you,me,or anyone[all] cannot see that we too are as guilty within our hearts and minds of crucifying Jesus,because of our very own carnal ways of living, then, our understanding of things Spiritual are yet in its infancy.
According to Scripture there are only two groups of mankind on the entire earth. These two groups would be the gentiles,and the people of Israel.It then would be by a necessity of default that all peoples of all times would have to fall into either group. According to Acts 4:26-27, if we look with Spiritual eyes, we can come to see that we as humans are all guilty of murdering Christ by going against His Truths.
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord,and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
By way of partaking into the babylonian system of things we surely kill our Lord by not living His very words of Spirit and Truth. Not only was the apostle Paul a chief of sinners but all of us fall into that condition if we do not come to see that by sinning against the Word of God makes us just as guilty of crucifying Jesus[the Truth and the Way] as the people that were there in the flesh.
Jesus died in order to save sinners of whom I see, with Spiritual eyes, to be all people of all times that go against His very words.If that is not killing Him, then I do not what is. All people are guilty of Jesus' death or we would have no need for a Savior.When we don't see ourselves as chief of sinners within our hearts and minds,just as Paul did,we then fall short,miss the mark,of the High calling,to the Glory of God.
1Ti 1:15 Faithful, the saying! and, of all acceptance, worthy,—that, Christ Jesus, came into the world, sinners, to save: of whom, the chief, am, I;—
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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