Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".

The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.

In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.

continuing;

Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

let us hear from the God's words.


Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, "Now listen to what I say:"If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.


The Lord show himself in a vision and  be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.

We are not to believe  that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he  made himself of no reputation in the OT.

The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Hi Santgem,

I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.

I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.

Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.

God bless,
Alex

[John from Kentucky]

This thread is proof of everlasting life.  It won't die.   

Ray said in his April 2, 2011 message that his previous writings about the nature of God and Jesus were incomplete in that he (Ray) did not bring together all the Scriptures on this subject.

Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.

Therefore, it was Ray himself who acknowledged his previous teachings on this subject are not complete.

Ray's message of April 2, 2011 has been removed from the B-T website.  I believe it was wrong to do so.  But God will judge.

Ray is not Jesus.  Ray's teachings are not Scripture.  What I respected about Ray was his adherence to God's Word and respect for it.  And his courage to rethink a subject to see if it truly conformed to the Scriptures.  I talked with Ray a few times in person and several times over the telephone.  Ray's respect for God's Scriptures is what stood out to me.

In one of our conversations I told Ray that I didn't think the majority of members of the B-T Forum would accept where he was headed with this Enigma/Nature of God subject.  Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit of God leads us.

Since, Ray brought this matter up, I've been studying all the Scriptures I could find on this subject.  I asked God to teach me because I want to know all there is about Him.  What He truly is.

God has showed me that He is One.  There are not two, or three of them.  Only One God, Who is unique and special and unlike anything we can imagine.  Who can appear before Abraham under the terenbith trees of Mamre, and as an actual human being on the earth and be killed, and at the same time be beyond the heaven of heavens because nothing can contain Him.

But it is apparent that there are not two of us who believe the same thing on this issue.  It is a source of confusion.  I am going to try and stay out of this discussion in the future.

Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls before someone who cannot appreciate value.  Only God can bring understanding on this matter.  God said the time will come when all will know Me (God) from the least to the greatest.

What a Great and Magnificent God He truly is.  What a blessing that He is creating mankind in His image.

[Dennis Vogel]

Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.

I've said this before and I guess I have to say it again.

Ray was doing a LOT of pain medication the last year of his life. There were more than one post he wanted on the forum that I asked Craig not to post. He was not making sense.

I questioned Ray more than once at breakfast about this and he had no answers for my questions.

Ray was not always thinking right the last year of his life. He was confused much of the time. He was wrong about this.

He never figured this out because it contracted what he taught many years ago.

[Dave in Tenn]

Dennis, I take your word that there may have been things Ray wanted posted that shouldn't have been.  However, what HAS BEEN posted never 'contradicted' in the truest sense what preceded it.  It only amplified it, refined it, explained it.  That's my firm 'view' on the matter.

Hopefully, a comforting word.  If any of our 'thoughts' on God have gone beyond seeing Him as a Trinity of equal parts or a six-foot man who happens to be invisible with a Son then you have "come out of" Sunday School...at least the one I went to.   

[Dave in Tenn]

John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts.  No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full.  Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.

[John from Kentucky]

John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts.  No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full.  Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.

Hey Dave.  No need to respect me.  I'm just a man.  If you think I'm lying, just say so.   

However, I did not misrepresent Ray's April 2, 2011 message.  It was in writing and on this website at least a couple of years, I believe.  I found Ray coherent and writing in plain English and quoting Scriptures in support of his statements that his and our understanding of this nature of God matter was not complete.  There are similar emails from Ray on this same matter in the emails section of the Forum.

I will also add that in my conversations with Ray, he was coherent and logical in his words and thoughts and freely quoted Scriptures in support of his statements to me.  I will also add that I found him to be a gentleman in his answers to me, even when I completely disagreed with him on Dr. Steger's health rules.  We parted as friends and on good terms after my last conversation with him.  Our last words concerned the Scripture in Roman's 14 that the Kingdom of God doesn't consist of food or drink.  (Of course, no need to believe me, with all respect.)

[Dave in Tenn]

I didn't call you a liar, or say you were lying.

[santgem]

Hi Santgem,

I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.

I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.

Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.

God bless,
Alex

Hello Alex,
Greetings

Actually you are right, when He appeared to Moises He has the "form" or "Likeness" of a man. Moises did see the back parts of God which is a form.


Speaking in the OT, YHWH cannot have his human form with flesh and blood or else it will contradicts hundreds of verses in the Scripture.
If YHWH had his human form as a man, then he will be under law as
"Gal. 4:4and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law"

Jesus fulfilled the law in the NT, we are now under grace.

Another things is  the prophecy. He was prophesied  that he "He had to be born of a virgin", "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse", "He is despised and rejected of men, dying on the cross", "they pierced my hands and my feet" and many more. Prophecy is exact and precised  and there is no way that it cannot be fulfilled. Jesus has to fulfill the prophecy concerning him. No one can thwarted the prophecy. If said that he will become a man on that day, year, hour then it must be done and must be materialized.



I just listened to the audio that posted by Dennis then suddenly it stopped, I skip the 28 minutes but did not work. I did it many times but not work.

Anyhow I heard Ray saying that Physical is temporary and Spirit is eternal.

If Spirit is eternal and "YHWH" who is the "I Am" who is "Jesus" and Jesus is  Lord and the Lord is that Spirit, then Jesus is eternal.




Let me give you my insight that i do not believe that Jesus is a created being.


   
Let us just say that when God(Father) begotten the Son(God) which is YHWH, YHWH is in the bosom of the Father.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son(the only begotten God), who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


YHWH, the only begotten Son(God)  being in the form of God empty himself and made in the likeness of men.

Phl 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,


The only remaining in heaven is the Father because the YHWH who is in the bosom of the Father emptied himself to become a man. But before he became a man he is sharing the glory with the Father.

Jhn 17:5'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Now YHWH becomes a man.  This son shall be called Jesus.

Mat 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Again God bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world.

Heb 1:5-6 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


The man Jesus is now subjected under the law so that he can fulfill the law and have God because he had the flesh and had God the moment he was born.

Gal 4:4 and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?


Jesus accomplished the task given to him by his Father.


Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst 28..... he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

After Jesus was born by a virgin and after resurrection and glorified, Jesus is still a man. Jesus had a God and Father.

Rev 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


This now we can relate to God our Father through Jesus. Jesus is God and man at the same time. He will be God and man forever. The man Jesus Christ is our mediator to the Father. 

[Kat]

Santgem, I really don't think you want to hear an answer from me or care what I have to say, but I'm going to give one anyway.

when He appeared to Moises He has the "form" or "Likeness" of a man. Moises did see the back parts of God which is a form.


Speaking in the OT, YHWH cannot have his human form with flesh and blood or else it will contradicts hundreds of verses in the Scripture.
If YHWH had his human form as a man, then he will be under law as
"Gal. 4:4and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law"

Jesus fulfilled the law in the NT, we are now under grace.

The thing that you seem to think is that God being in the form or likeness of a man in the OT, as I showed Scripture that said He was many times (both in spirit form as a man and appearing bodily as a man as well) then that meant I was saying that He was human at those times? That is not what I was saying at all... angels can appear to people in the form of a man, does that make them human? God gave His Son the form of a man because He was to be their God over this creation... it was for the purpose so that we could identify with Him, it was for our benefit.

In the OT the Son, who was the only God made know in the OT, could and did take on the form of a man, as the Scripture says, BUT He did not become human until He was born of a human woman. This is a significant point that I think you are missing.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

In the OT He was the Creator of the law, so He understood it's purpose very well. It was not until He was born as human to a Jewish mother that He BECAME a Jew, that is what made Him under the law.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

We have been warned that there will be false teachers even from among us.

2Pet 2:1 - "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

But God's word also assures us that it is not possible for His chosen elect to be deceived.

Matt 24:24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

I trust and believe God's word. Lets heed the warnings, and take comfort in His assurance.  With that being said, I am going to lock this tread.  If anyone will like to continue the conversation, start a new one.