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God=Love

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Kat:

Hi Dante,

I think I am beginning to see where you are coming from.  Love is most certainly an all encompassing factor that we all must learn.  I agree with you that there are people in this world who do show great acts of love and there is no doubt those who are very loving people as a way of life.  But is love without the knowledge of who and what Christ is enough by itself to be in the first resurrection?

John 6:53  Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
v. 54  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
v. 55  For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
v. 56  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
v. 57  As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
v. 58  This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

Jesus Christ is the means by which we recieve this bread of life that substains us.  How do we 'eat' Christ?  He is our bread spiritually, when we learn the knowledge of the Truth that He revealed, we are partaking of His body.

John 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
v. 28  Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
v. 29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

John 6:33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

John 6:40  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
v. 48  I am the bread of life.
v. 49  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
v. 50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
v. 51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

I those loving people that come up in the Lake of fire will not have too much to worry about - few stripes.
But the first resurrection is for those few that Christ is training and preparing to rule and reign with Him.  And all those really great and loving people all through history, the Elect will teach them the Truth.  Because the Elect will be the bride of Christ, they have been prepared to reign with Christ.

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."

When the Elect are ruling the world with Christ, all people will come to the knowledge of the Truth.

1Tim 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And what is the Truth?

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 18:37  Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?"
    Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
       Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
       For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

I hope you can follow these Scriptures that I have presented, so many of them speak for themself and there was no need to comment  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Dante:
Thanks Kat and Joe (And everyone else for replying). And Kat I am glad that you are starting to see where I am coming from, because my fingers are starting to hurt,....LOL!
Just kidding, I Love talking about the Word of God.

But think about it Kat. Unless people are acting out of there own Carnal Minds in these seemingly Selfless acts, who's power are they acting under??
Granted that SOME people do seemingly wonderful acts, for Glory of themselves, YET are we really ready to believe that Ghandi or Mother Teresa or others of their likeness that have done marvelous things for Mankind, and sacrificed MUCH for Mankind's benefit are ALWAYS and in EVERY case acting of their own accord, for their own selfish ambitions??

If, they are not doing it of themselves then it cannot be OF SATAN. (Does Satan wish to feed the poor or clothe the homeless out of PURE LOVE?)

If not themselves and not Satan's then it must be of God.
Since a good tree does NOT produce bad fruit and a bad tree does not produce Good fruit.

No doubt that SOME people SEEM to be Good, but in the darkness they are Evil.
But what is the ratio??

Jesus himself said that if you do not believe for no other reason that I am who I say I am, Then believe me because I do the WORKS of HIM WHO SENT ME.


When you quoted those verses that speak of partaking of Jesus' body and blood, you and I know it is not a literal thing. And we know it is a sign of something that has happened inside ourselves.
But if we partake of the manna, of the body of Christ, what is the BODY of CHRIST?
It is surly not saying his name and calling him LORD. That may be part of it, but in IT'S most potent and VITAL MEANING, may it not be partaking of his actions and WHAT HE STOOD FOR?? Or the DEEP DESIRE TO WANT TO DO IT, may be the more appropriate thing to say.



Lets try this and see if it fits! (UL will stand for Unconditional Love after the first planting of the phrase,...ok?. FL will stand for self glorifying love (False Love))

John 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes (False Love, the kind that brings man Glory), but for the food (The PURE LOVE of God) which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you (The unconditional Love), because God the Father has set His seal (UL) on Him."
v. 28  Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
v. 29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him (the worker of UL, who is in FACT LOVE IN HIS ESSENCE) whom He sent."

John 6:33  For the bread (UL) of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life (UL) to the world."

John 6:40  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son (Since not many saw him, I think what he is saying sees the UL) and believes (Accepts UL as a way of life) in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (To be a partaker of God's way,...UL); and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me (Christ's works of UL) has everlasting life.
v. 48  I am the bread (The Essence of life or the exact essence of love toward mankind) of life.
v. 49  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
v. 50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it (Partake of the ideology of UL) and not die.
v. 51  I am the living bread (Jesus is the Bread, the light, the life, the reflection of the Father, the exact essence of God, which is LOVE) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread (Partakes of his ways), he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh (The exact essence of God, which is Love), which I shall give for the life of the world."

Don't get me wrong, God ALL Encompassing, Justice, Mercy, Kindness, Righteousness, but above ALL ELSE, he is LOVE. That is why he gave the commandments of 1) Love God 2) Love your Brothers and Sisters.
He even said that we can have all other things, but IF WE ARE NOT LOVE, WE ARE NOTHING!!

And we know that if we have a pure love for our fellow man, then it is a sure sign that we Love God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

And this:

3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."

And this:

40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Just one more thing. If on judgment day, a man who did not know of the name of God stands before God and is IN judgment. And this man was such a Loving and kind man devoting his life to LOVE (Assuming that it was not for THAT man's OWN GLORY). What would he have to go to the Lake of Fire for??


The way I see it, it seems like there WILL be those who don't have an idea of who God is (In name only), but who knew him through an INNER DESIRE TO CARRY OUT THE WORKS OF JESUS' LOVE IN HIS HEART (Via the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD), and the man might not have even known about it. He just knew he HAD TO LOVE. He wanted to LOVE. It became PART of the man.
And this kind of man might just be one of those people who asked God,...Hey God, when did we feed you, when did we visit you in Prison??"

And there WILL be those who will say on the day of Judgment: Lord, Lord we did this and that, and God will say, away from me you WORKERS OF INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU!!"

How could God say he never knew them?? They called him Lord and did wonderful works in HIS NAME and were professing Christians,....RIGHT??, YET, those works were really NOT WONDERFUL, because the were not out of GOD'S Unconditional Love!


Peace and Love my friends. :)
God Bless.

Dante

Kat:

Hi Dante,


--- Quote ---To be saved we need to believe the truth (YES, But how do we know that God does not IMPUTE the Truth to others without DIRECT knowledge of the word. Might not the Word, (that is Jesus Christ himself), be given to others by other means??)
--- End quote ---

We are to be baptized into His death, how can you be baptised into His death if you have never heard of Him.  It is a spiritual thing, but you have to know about Jesus Christ and how He was crucified.  You have to know Him to be buried with Him.

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

You are saying that someone could have the Holy Spirit without knowing it, and then show Gods love by that Spirit in them.  What would be the point in God not revealing His Son to someone that would rule and reign with Him?  It's not like God would be unable to find a way to bring the knowledge of Jesus Christ to someone.  Look at all the Bibles that we have in the world.

Eph 4:11  And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12  for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13  till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

2Co 4:6  For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

What I have been trying to show is that so many Scripture indicate that you must know the person Jesus Christ, and that is much more than saying His name and calling Him LORD.  Of course to 'know' Him spiritually only comes form the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I just think what I am seeing in the Scriptures is to come to know Him spiritually you have to study what the Man had to say.   

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Joh 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify (to bear witness) of Me (Jesus Christ).

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Little Joe:
Thanks for starting this thread, Dante.  It was a really good discussion.

Myself,  I have a hard time fathoming John the Baptist not being in the first resurrection.  After all, he knew Christ personally and served God better than I could possibly hope to....but that's my own way of thinking. 

Anyway, my own thought on all of this, is that all men have been given a certain knowledge of God, He has revealed himself by creation for example:

Romans 1
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So, at the Great White thrown judgment, I believe persons who are not in Christ are going to be judged on the knowledge that was revealed to them and what they did with it.  For some, (such as the old testament saints) I believe it will be more of a joyful revelation they will eagerly except, for others, it is going to be a painful process full of remorse and regret (their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth).

Another point, while Love is the Hallmark of the Christian (He that loveth not, knoweth not God), it is not the quality that saves us (For by grace ye have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves - it is the gift of God (His choice), it is a fruit of walking in the spirit.   

I have heard many people talk about love in a very loose fashion, as though it didn't matter what we believe, as long as we were loving to others. This type of love is generally "phileo" love, and most humans possess this type of love in varying degrees.  It can lead to a great deal of good works, but it doesn't mean that a person knows Christ.  We shouldn't be fooled by a great deal of talk and activity. 

Human "phileo" love and agape love are different.  Agape love is a fruit of the Spirit, and we can't even possibly walk in that unless we have the Spirit of God in us, that we receive by faith.  This type of love enables us to love our enemies and our neighbor as ourself.

Scripture is clear that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, and many of you have cited a great deal of Scripture to already prove that point so I don't need to belabor that.  One day every knee will bow and very tongue  confess, then God will be all in all.

Peace to you all,

Joe

Robin:
The last thing I did before leaving the church was to teach at the women's bible study. I was invited as a guest speaker. It had only been a few months before that God showed me the "Beast". I learned very quickly that my righteousness was as filthy rags to God. I cut strips from cloth and rubbed them in dirt and pulled them out of a clay jar and started to tell the women of my goodness a filthy strip at a time. I shared how God brought me to repentance and how he showed me there was no good thing in me. Christ in me, the hope of Glory. (Colossians 1:27)


Only God is good.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Isaiah 64
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
       and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
       we all shrivel up like a leaf,
       and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Romans 3
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
   "There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11there is no one who understands,
      no one who seeks God.
 12All have turned away,
      they have together become worthless;
   there is no one who does good,
      not even one."
 13"Their throats are open graves;
      their tongues practice deceit."
   "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
    14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16ruin and misery mark their ways,
 17and the way of peace they do not know."
    18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith
 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."  4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Zechariah 3
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
      Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."

 5 Then I said, "Put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by.

 6 The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.

 8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

 10 " 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty."

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