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Born out of Water
Ninny:
Kat & Earl,
I think you are right, that is probably the meaning of that. After all you must be born before you can be "reborn". Makes perfect sense to me!
Kathy :)
mharrell08:
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):
Dear Francis:
Thank you for your email and comments.
So you believe that the PHYSICAL foreskins no longer apply to we Believers of the Nations, but that the PHYSICAL water of baptism most certainly does still apply. They are one and the same, Francis. Physically cutting off the foreskin and physically being placed under water are PHYSICAL RITUALS. They accomplish NOTHING with the spirit. Until Christ comes into our lives we SHOULD be physically circumcised, physically baptized, and physically give our tithes of farm produce to the Levites, but when the REALITY [Christ] of all of those types and shadows COMES, we are no longer under a tutor or schoolmaster, but we are by faith to go on to maturity (Gal. 3).
John is not speaking of PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood in I John 5:6 & 8. Two things came out of Jesus' PHYSICAL BODY when they pierced Him: PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood (John 19:34). These two things from then on become SYMBOLS of something SPIRITUAL that takes place in us by these two things. Being PHYSICALLY baptizes in PHYSICAL water will not make ANYONE spiritual. Likewise partaking of the Lord's Supper with PHYSICAL wine symbolizing Christ's shed blood will not make ANYONE spiritual. Jesus Christ is the reality of both THE WATER and THE BLOOD.
Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood." Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:
"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).
"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).
Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God? Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD." Here's a second witness:
"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).
And since these two words "water and blood" are used symbolically to represent spiritual realities, we can even be washed clean in "the blood":
"...and WASHED us from our sins in His own BLOOD" (Rev. 1:5b).
Remember that Jesus said,
"...the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)
Therefore:
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born OF WATER [what kind of water? physical water?] and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
Is Jesus speaking of PHYSICAL WATER and PHYSICAL BAPTISM? Hardly. Look at the next chapter:
"...and He [Christ] would have given you LIVING WATER" (John 4:10).
"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: but whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst: but the water that I shall give shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting LIFE" (Ver. 14)
Water of LIFE, LIVING waters:
"He that believes on Me, as the SCRIPTURE has said [Scripture is God's word, and we are washed with with water of God's WORD], out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATERS" (John 7:38).
After being baptized by water, the disciples of Jesus were still unconverted. Why even Peter was unconverted (Luke 22:32). Physical water did them little good SPIRITUALLY. However, Jesus promised that they would be baptized with something else:
"For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence" (Acts 1:5).
Baptism is of the heart and spirit just as circumcision. If we can't comprehend this spiritual truth, then we are missing the whole point of these types and shadows of which Jesus Christ is the only reality.
God be with you,
Ray
Another email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3582.0):
Dear Ray,
Question: John 3:5 records Jesus saying, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
What is this water being spoken of? You'd surprise me if you answered 'physical baptism', but does physical baptism have any symbolic relationship with this water? Does John 13:10 give a clue when Jesus says to Peter regarding foot-washing, "He who is bathed ['born of water'?] needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean"?
Thanks for your web site. It has and continues to be a blessing.
-Don
Dear Don:
I answer this in my upcoming paper: HELL Part D. I could answer it now, and do it very simply, but then maybe you wouldn't read my Hell Part D as is it will be very long paper.
God be with you,
Ray
And here is a portion from the Hell Part D that Ray covers (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
SANCTIFICATION: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" (John 17:17 & Eph. 5:26-27). Strong's #37, hagiazo, "to make holy, purify, consecrate, venerate, hallow, be holy, sanctify." Need I point out once more the enormous change that must be made in us. We are spiritually dirty and we need to be changed to something that is pure and holy. This we are told is accomplished by the Christ "washing us from our sins in His own blood" (Rev. 1:5), and "with the washing of water by the word." We are sanctified (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the Word of God, which Word is Jesus Christ and His blood.
John 6:63 ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Eph 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you
And here is where Ray explains being 'born of the spirit'
Excerpt from same LOF paper (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):
REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived [Gk: gennao] in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born [Gk: gennao] in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born [Gk: gennao] again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation. But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
This is why that the Gk word 'kai' means 'AND' and not 'therefore'. One must be 'born of the water' (sanctification by His Word) AND 'born of the spirit' (born of the spirit is SPIRIT).
Also Carlos, did you ever find any scriptures where 'kai' was used as 'therefore' instead of 'and'?
To all: We should not jump on the bandwagon for any new belief or thought just because it 'sounds good'. It's not easy of course, but we must rely on the Word of God for our foundation and not thoughts or beliefs that 'tickle our ears'.
Thanks,
Marques
Kat:
Hi Marques,
Thanks for digging up those different pieces of Ray's material, I got it :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ninny:
Ok, Marques, looks like I need to go back and read that a little closer! :D
Kathy :)
mharrell08:
No problem Kat & Kathy...only by the grace of God do I find these scriptures and excerpts of Ray's teachings. :)
I just thought of something as well. I remember an old member making a sarcastic remark to me about 'parroting' what Ray says. Threads and subjects like these are EXACTLY WHY we refer to Ray's teachings. It's not about following some man called Ray Smith; it's about relying on a teacher (anyone want to challenge Ray NOT being a teacher?) that God has blessed us with and his teachings.
So, anyone who ever wonders why Kat, Rene, I, etc. always 'just post something from Ray' instead of trying to explain ourselves...this is why. Though we do express our thoughts, Ray's a teacher with the Word of God as his foundation and by the grace of God is how we all came to this forum. We're just having the teacher 'teach'. :)
Thanks,
Marques
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