A question derived from one of ray's papers.

[Falconn003]

I was raised up catholic, and came across many, many superstitions. The ever popular healer man of latin lore.

visions, images of Jesus, voices,..ect ..........by the truck load

And not one of them ever came through on thier words. More of a traditional SCAM for easy cash, then boooooooooo power of principalities of darkness.

To sum it all it, WHAT A JOKE !

peace and understanding
Rodger

[Sorin]

Hey !! Did you hear about the one were 2 penguins were vacationing in the Bahamas.....?

No, actually I haven't. But perhaps you'll be kind enough to tell it to us. 

[DuluthGA]

Rodger, PLEASE TELL ME what happened to those bloomin' penguins?

It doesn't matter to me what it/they/their manifestations are called, "EVIL", demons, "good teachers", familiar spirits... these concept/entities simply do not exist without God. We all know this, right??

Arcturus, from Splinter in the Flesh, the bottom line is that whatever it was, God gave it to him to keep him humble.  [e.g., lots of physical problems.]  From P. 6:

Only Paul actually experienced "transcendency" in this life.  Because of the privilege presented to Paul, God must now humble him and bring him back down to earth.

Darren, bless your heart, you are a piece of something sweet, but methinks you are wrapped just a little bit too tight on this one.  Rodger's use of the terms "idiots" and "fools" are calling them just the way God has and is playing them.  IT'S FUNNY!! 

With joy, Janice

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Janice

You write:Arcturus, from Splinter in the Flesh, the bottom line is that whatever it was, God gave it to him to keep him humble.  [e.g., lots of physical problems.]  From P. 6:

Only Paul actually experienced "transcendency" in this life.  Because of the privilege presented to Paul, God must now humble him and bring him back down to earth.

Janice, the "splinter in the flesh" was a creature not physical problems and that creature was a messenger of Satan that struck Paul  "in blows inordinately." 2 Cor 11:23 That is not to say that Pauls TRIALS and physical disabilities were not sent to humble him but the creature messenger was sent to keep him grounded, balanced and for this God sent him to buffet Paul "inordinately.

This might mean that the messenger of Satan is sent to those who experience transcendence of Christ and physical trials are sent only to HUMILIATE and HUMBLE those who have not yet experienced TRANSCENDENCE?

Ray observes : Remember, Paul's revelations were transcendent. It is, therefore, necessary that his humiliation must be in accord with his exaltation. Is there a negative word that answers, in kind, to the word "transcendence"? Yes. It's the word "inordinately"!

Let's first look at the positive: Webster's, transcend, 1. To go beyond the limits of; exceed 2. To surpass; excel. This is the positive side of [h]uperbole.

Now the negative: I like Webster's New World Student's Dictionary: inordinate, adj. too many or too much; excessive.
http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html


Good to see you back....from where? ...Joyful1 !

Peace to you

Arcturus

[DuluthGA]

Dear Arcturus,

NO, there are no creatures/entities/ghosts/spirits/familiars, etc., WHATEVER LABEL we can give them.  It IS ALL THE SPIRIT OF EVIL GIVEN BY GOD to Satan as His tool, or...  Okay, God through Satan or disease or through His natural processes (aging) CAUSED Paul to be PHYSICALLY humbled.  Please confirm to me that you don't think A CREATURE or a FAMILIAR SPIRIT is involved.  Surely at this late hour I am misunderstanding you.  Perhaps I am enlightening you.

Your second paragraph in blue has TOTALLY THROWN me in that I have no idea of what you are trying to say, and I have reread it a few times.  Honest, you lost me on this one, sorry.

Well of course Paul was 'inordinately' balanced-out by God in receiving the "splinter" because of his God-given spiritual vision. Can I hear the choir sing... "God HAD to humble Paul!!"  He HAD to humble him because of the GLORY he was given to see... that awaits!

Too bad about this little tizz, ain't nothin' but a tizz...  Always appreciate your scholarship otherwise.

With joy, Janice

[YellowStone]

Hi Janice

Thank you for your kind words, and perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way; however, maybe I can present my understanding a little differently. Let us for example, imagine a class of young children; some bright, some rich, some healthy and lot's just plain average and sickly. Now imagine that the teacher for no apparent reason, picks out 5% (just a number) and gives them special treatment, tutition and attention. Perhaps the teacher provides these "special" pupils after hours tution as well.

But there is nothing special about these children, some are bright, some are poor and some are sickly; goodness knows that the other children are clueless as to why "some" are receiving special treatment, while they themselves are not.

Now let us consider how the children would feel if the teacher started calling the remainder of the class as: fools, hypocrittess and a joke. Oh sure, some may gleefully agree, and voice the same, lauding their good fortune over those whom they themselves were just a few days, weeks or months were right with them.

Yet others, would see well that they have no reason to boast, knowing well that it was nothing that they did or can give that has earned their special treatment. They know that if not for thier being picked out, they would be right where the others are now. Do they think the others as jokes, or idiots? Heck no and neither do they think it is funny; why would they? Did the teacher do it for "their" amusment?

Perhaps the teacher finds immense amusement from his/her actions, but were these actions for the amusement of the few?

Luk 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.  

• The word "pleased" is key here: Pleased - eudokeō  [G2106]
  
  1) it seems good to one, is one's good pleasure
      a) think it good, choose, determine, decide
      b) to do willingly
      c) to be ready to, to prefer, choose rather
  2) to be well pleased with, take pleasure in, to be favourably inclined towards one
  

Luk 12:33  Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

• Are we not to give what little we have to those who are poor in Spirit? Are not the purses that we make for ourselves that will not wear out, the same purses that contain the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Gal 5:22,23)

Luke 12:34  For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

I firmly believe that the good fortune given to the children is for their benefit and growth. Which of the children would you think are being most responsible regarding the "gift" of good fortune giving them: those scoffing out those less fortunate, or those who are in any way they can, sharing the things they ahve learned with the others so that they too can have some hope of getting good grades too.

Are these not the same Spirit driven principles expected of us?

Thanks Janice, I hope this helps you see where I am coming from.

If anyone has any comments on this, please share them.

Love n Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi Janice,

NO, there are no creatures/entities/ghosts/spirits/familiars, etc., WHATEVER LABEL we can give them.  It IS ALL THE SPIRIT OF EVIL GIVEN BY GOD to Satan as His tool, or... 

Ray believes there are demons and mentions them numerous times. Here's a few emails from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html -------

Dear Michelle:
The only spirits "roaming around" are demons, not the spirits of DEAD people.

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html ----

Dear Brenda:
ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -------

Dear Chris:

    There have been probably 5 to 10 thousand volumes written on demons and exorcism. It is not likely that I can explain this subject in five to ten sentences.

    There is "possession" and there is "obsession."  Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.

    Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural.  Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people.  I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized.  With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.

    The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).  It is part of our Christian walk of faith.

    The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist."  Many Christians worship these spirits.  I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:

    "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).

    God be with you,

    Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Janice

Here is the paragraph you say totally threw you : Janice, the "splinter in the flesh" was a creature not physical problems and that creature was a messenger of Satan that struck Paul  "in blows inordinately." 2 Cor 11:23 That is not to say that Paul's TRIALS and physical disabilities were not sent to humble him but the creature messenger was sent to keep him grounded, balanced and for this God sent him to buffet Paul "inordinately.

I can presume the above paragraph that threw you could throw others too if they have not familiarised themselves with the teaching that expounds this truth.  : http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html If you can not accept/agree/understand the revelations in this clear, concise teaching then I expect you have quite a roller coaster ride ahead of you yet. If confronted for example how will you ever explain Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying What is your name? And he said, Legion: because MANY DEVILS WERE ENTERED INTO HIM.

If the teachings on the link provided click as true for you then you may see why I posted that paragraph that threw you because it is the summation of the gentle yet profound wisdom's shown through Rays teaching on this subject.

This teaching plus the edifying responces posted by Kat from Ray should convince you to change your views God willing. Then perhaps you can reflect this wisdom to others who also get thrown.

The false teachings out of Babylon have been around for more than 2000 years and because many  have learnt errors from Babylon for so long or simply due to a preference for the comforts of familiar deception they go against the truths of God and those who have come out of Her because the unfamiliar truth exposes Babylonian deceptions and lies.

I think all of us who have been ushered by the Spirit of God to come to know the truth can verify by personal testimony, that the path to Truth hurts. It requires repentance and separation from what is familiar and it involves pain, disappointment and discovery that illusion is a powerful aphrodisiac for the flesh and carnality of man. Non are exempt. Some get to know and experience  the intimacy of Christ, and to stand before Him just as we are....naked. Others will kill not to go through such vulnerability and they will hang on to idols to hide behind or cover themselves from knowing they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. Rev 3:17

If you have no clue what I am saying, just think....some one in Cyber Space might get it and it might have meaning for them. 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[seminole]

I don't understand much of this. If it is a true , creature, what was the creature?

[Deborah-Leigh]

The answer is in the transcript. Believe it or not!

Last time...here is the link...http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html

[seminole]

So it was Satan? I read what the link was and that's all I can see.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Okay...here's the answer.

Paul's splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul's transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh").

A messenger of Satan...is NOT SATAN....its a demon...an appointed MESSENGER of Satan....

Peace to you

Arcturus

[seminole]

A messenger of Satan and it was a creature? May be dense here but what is the creature or what was the creature?

[YellowStone]

Hi Nole,

There can be no doubt that Paul was inflicted with a demon/angel/messenger of some nature because there is no escaping the word "aggelos" which means:

Strongs G32.
   1. a messenger,
   2. envoy,
   3. one who is sent,
   4. an angel,
   5. a messenger from God

I think I can help you better understand the point Arcturus is making. Following is what Paul had to say about his "Splinter" and what he was told by God.

2Cr 12:8  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2Cr 12:9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The key to understanding is in the 9th verse. Christ said himself that his strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul was not allowed to become conceited in his own glory.

The Scriptures give other examples of how Satan is used (not mesenger of) to bring others back to spiritual truth. Shocked? Please read on.

1Cr 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,

1Cr 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Really!! So Satan can destroy the flesh so that the spirit maybe saved. How could this happen. Well the "church" was recognized as a sanctuary from Satan, and obviously the man in this instance had commited a crime worthy of punishment / heart felt repentance. So Paul had the man thrown out of the church into the hands of Satan, who through demoralization and deparvity, will cause the man to repent and return to his former state.

This is not the only time we are told that Satan has been "used" in this way.

1Ti 1:20  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The similarities between these two examples and Paul are unmistakable; however, there is one major difference. Paul was a prominent member of Christ's church; it would have served no purpose to expell him from it; so Paul was given a "splinter" as a constant reminder so that the messagae of Christ would not be forgotten: My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Paul was happy with this arrangement, for he continued in his letter, saying:

2Cr 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I hope this helps your understanding.

With Love in Christ,
Darren

[seminole]

Yeah, makes sense. Sort of like the story of Job? You know where Satan went before God Himself to try to make Job a less than faithful  servant of God.

[GODSown1]

FEAR NOTHING!!! but the LORD,
                                   "The task ahead of U is NOTHING!!! 2 da Power bhind U!", Praise the LORD alwayZ!!!.
                                    muchLOVE!! Pera

[LittleBear]

Absolutely Pera!

God will give us the strength to move ahead no matter what we face. There is nothing to fear. Our job is to keep pressing on!

Love,

Ursula

[GODSown1]

Amen & Amen sister Ursula,
                                   muchLOVE!! Pera

[Brett]

Hi Nole,

There can be no doubt that Paul was inflicted with a demon/angel/messenger of some nature because there is no escaping the word "aggelos" which means:

Strongs G32.
   1. a messenger,
   2. envoy,
   3. one who is sent,
   4. an angel,
   5. a messenger from God

I think I can help you better understand the point Arcturus is making. Following is what Paul had to say about his "Splinter" and what he was told by God.

2Cr 12:8  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2Cr 12:9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The key to understanding is in the 9th verse. Christ said himself that his strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul was not allowed to become conceited in his own glory.

The Scriptures give other examples of how Satan is used (not mesenger of) to bring others back to spiritual truth. Shocked? Please read on.

1Cr 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,

1Cr 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Really!! So Satan can destroy the flesh so that the spirit maybe saved. How could this happen. Well the "church" was recognized as a sanctuary from Satan, and obviously the man in this instance had commited a crime worthy of punishment / heart felt repentance. So Paul had the man thrown out of the church into the hands of Satan, who through demoralization and deparvity, will cause the man to repent and return to his former state.

This is not the only time we are told that Satan has been "used" in this way.

1Ti 1:20  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The similarities between these two examples and Paul are unmistakable; however, there is one major difference. Paul was a prominent member of Christ's church; it would have served no purpose to expell him from it; so Paul was given a "splinter" as a constant reminder so that the messagae of Christ would not be forgotten: My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Paul was happy with this arrangement, for he continued in his letter, saying:

2Cr 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I hope this helps your understanding.

With Love in Christ,
Darren

Darren,

Thanks for the sharing with us of what you have learned from the scriptures!

Brett 

[DuluthGA]

HI all, and thanks for responding Darren and Arcturus, I will catch up on all of this hopefully tomorrow; I had such a very over-full day today... and am too whacked out to read tonight.  OY!

But this is all very interestesting to me!

Love, Janice