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Author Topic: Eternal Life not promised?  (Read 23081 times)

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bobf

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2006, 05:34:57 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
The “dead in Christ� that RISE FIRST are the “tares�; those that sleep. Paul said that WE will NOT PREVENT “those that sleep�. He's not talking about those who are PHYSICALLY dead... he's talking about those who also remain who have not passed from death unto life; those who are not a part of the first resurrection, receiving life now... passing from the NIGHT into THE DAY.


How do you know Paul is not talking about the physically dead?

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

The tares are not in Christ so they can not be the "dead in Christ" can they? They are gathered first, but they are gathered OUT of the kingdom to be burned, not into the kingdom or resurrected.

The orders of being made alive in Christ are (1 Cor 15)
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming
3. The enemies of Christ
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2006, 06:13:31 PM »

Quote
However, it WAS indirectly claimed that the "resurrection" "IS" and...."WAS" (WAS is a PAST-TENSE word that means ALREADY HAPPENED).


If your "implying myself" I said no such thing. Christ IS "The Resurrection" and HE certainly WAS, IS, and WILL BE "The Resurrection". In regard to WHO IS "The Resurrection" He most certain WAS. But in regard to knowing the power of HIS RESURRECTION, this is our ONGOING HOPE in the IS and IS TO COME.

But of the Resurrection being PAST is NOT what I am saying. IT shows that "AFTER" HIS RESURRECTION (Rising) OTHERS CAME FORTH (the picture to show something further concerning ourselves)

Meaning AFTER HIS Resurrection, HE (who IS the Resurrection) IS OUR HOPE to know the power of His.

The only thing that is PAST in regard to what Christ "has done" and "finished", and did ONLY ONCE and FOR ALL is to DIE FOR SINS. Scriptures tell us this very thing.

Part in the first Resurrection is having part in Him (who IS "the FIRST" and "THE Resurrection").

So please keep in mind when thinking you hear one thing, as in "the Resurrection is past, that is not at all what I meant. I meant it in regard to WHO He is EVEN BEFORE His resurrection that HE HIMSELF "IS" The Resurrection, "WHO" (by nature of WHO HE "IS") WAS, IS, and IS TO COME.

Just thought I would clear that, so others cann understand thats not what "I" personally am saying. In case that is implied concerning "me" either directly or indirectly.

Peace

Daniel
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alchemist

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2006, 06:17:49 PM »

I'm starting to look into it myself so I can't explain right now but I beleive the reserection itself is a parable hidden in the tora.I'll try to explain later if I get it.
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2006, 06:38:58 PM »

I don't want to get out of the bounds of what is taught here so I'm going to exit the thread. I my self have a lot of thinking and studying to do on this subject. One last quick respone.

Quote
The tares are not in Christ so they can not be the "dead in Christ" can they?


I believe all is in Christ. Most just don't know it yet. Not to be mistaken with "Christ in you".

Act 17:28  
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

These are pagans Paul is talking to. So pagans "live and move and have there being" in God

Rom 11:36  
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things:

Joh 14:20  
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Rom 5:10  
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1Co 1:2  
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 11:30  
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Many of these Corinthians "that are sactified in Christ Jesus" sleep.

1Th 5:10  
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Deedle  :D
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2006, 06:45:11 PM »

Quote from: bobf
Chrissie,

How can the gathering and burning of the tares be considered a resurrection?   They are gathered out of the kingdom, not into it.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The pharisees do not precede the publicans & sinners into the kingdom.  The publicans & sinners precede and lead the pharisees into the kingdom.


Bob,

The field is the world, is it not?

To good seed are the children of the kingdom and the tares are the children of the wicked one, right?

Not exactly.  :shock:

the good seed are the SONS (the word is uihos). The Children of the kingdom are cast out.  :shock:  (coming back to that)

But the harvest comes at the end of the world (age) and the reapers are the angels.

He tells the angels to gather the tares first, and gather the wheat into the barn.

Both are gathered “out of the kingdom�, are they not? Is this not because both are growing together (ALL having been reconciled to God through Christ) until harvest?

If this doesn’t apply to the resurrection what does it apply to, even Ray applies this to the resurrection, does he not? In Matthew, where these verses appear, it says: “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.�

Both are growing together but the righteousness of the kingdom cannot shine forth until the tares have been removed.

How are the tares removed? They are cast into the furnace to be “burned up�.

There is also a difference between a child/servant and a son and what does it say about “the children of the kingdom�?

    Mat 8:11  And I say unto you, That
many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 8:12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/list:u]

Is this not referring to the same things?

All have been reconciled to God through Christ right… so all have been brought into the kingdom of God – as children of God. But all things that “offend� and “them which do iniquity� have to be gathered up (or cast out)… into the furnace to be burned (or into outer darkness). The descriptions are the same, are they not?

 
Where else do we see weeping and gnashing of teeth? In the Lake of Fire, right?

And what does Peter tell us:

    1Pe 4:12  Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.[/list:u]

here Peter mentions this "fiery trial" but he says “but let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, etc". Is that not the same description as those who “have their part in the Lake of Fire�? As those who “without� the gates of the city…. where there is NO NIGHT? And where are the children of the kingdom cast? Into "outter darkness" where there is "wailing and gnashing of teeth", right?

Not all have entered into the city, into the New Jerusalem, but all are in the kingdom, as I see it. However, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God".

I think I will stop here... that is why I didn't want to get into all of this. As it would take pages and pages to try and explain myself and I do not wish to cause an argument or any controversy.

Blessings,
Chrissie

Oh, and Bob...  where did I say that the Pharisees go in first?

The publicans and harlots go in first (Mat 21:31).
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2006, 06:53:29 PM »

Quote from: Deedle
I believe all is in Christ. Most just don't know it yet. Not to be mistaken with "Christ in you".


I over-posted you Deedle, but yes (this is as I see it as well).... as I said in my post to Bob. Unless we are born again we cannot SEE the kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean that the kingdom is not here.

Even the children of the kingdom are cast out.... not to be confused with the SONS (the good seed).

It is when we receive the spirit of ADOPTION that God send us the spirit of His SON that cries Abba Father!

We are all children and heirs.... but as long as we are a CHILD we differ nothing from the servant, though we be LORD OF ALL.

We WAIT for the manifestation of SONS.

Blessings,
Chrissie

And maybe I should bow out of this thread now, too.   :wink:
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2006, 07:20:29 PM »

Jerreye, (I missed your questions)

We are sealed with the earnest of the spirit, yes. But we are sealed with the earnest of the spirit even as children of God. But we must “move on to perfection�. We must mature. And we cannot do that without Christ IN US.

Yes, I am still in this body of flesh and yes I will one day die. And eventually I will be completely FREE from this body of flesh/death…. But I can be “redeemed� from it even now, through Christ.

Even Paul says:

    Rom 8:1  
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9  But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10  And IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, the body is DEAD because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/list:u]

So to answer your question… God willing, I am NO LONGER in the flesh, minding the things of the flesh… but walking after the spirit, if so be that I have the spirit of God dwelling in me.

Blessings,
Chrissie

PS... I was not saying that you made a direct accusation, but the implication is that this line of thinking is to say that the resurrection is past... and that is NOT what this is saying.
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mercie

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2006, 06:36:34 AM »

Awesome Thread.

Thanks you to all who shared. :D

Christ " in US " Our Hope of Glory.

The Resurrection and the Life. :D  :D
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bobf

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2006, 11:17:19 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: bobf
Oh, and Bob...  where did I say that the Pharisees go in first?

The publicans and harlots go in first (Mat 21:31).


Chrissie, I must be greatly misunderstanding something you are saying.  But this is the part that made me think what I said (I underlined the key parts).

Quote
Them that are “asleep� are not physically dead people; they are they who are walking in darkness, not having passed from death unto life, not knowing the love of God or one another.

And “those who are ALIVE and remain� (those who are dead ALSO “remain�) will not prevent them; for they will be caught up first (the tares are harvested FIRST; Mat 13:30). THEN “those who are alive and remain" will be caught up together with them.


So my understanding of what you've said is that "them that sleep" are "them walking in darkness" i.e the spiritually dead (pharisees for example).  You say these are "harvested first" and "caught up first".  First relative to whom?  I thought you meant first relative to those who are NOT spiritually dead (i.e. the publicans & sinners).

I apologize for misunderstanding.

God bless,
Bob
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2006, 11:44:32 PM »

Bob,

Ok, I also misunderstood you then , too.  :oops: I wasn't even thinking of that....

I did say that the tares are harvested FIRST, as this is according to scripture, right?

    Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and
in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.[/list:u]

And what are the tares?

    Mat 13:38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one;[/list:u]

So how do *I* 'understand' how this happens?? That the tares, who are the children of the "wicked one" are gathered FIRST  :shock:  (as the scriptures so state!!)??

By kowing that we are ALL 'dead' apart from Christ and that we must ALL go through some sort of judgment or "fiery trial" to have all that "hay, wood and stubble" burned up. Right?

So, as I see it, we ALL start out as "tares". For "to be carnally minded is DEATH". Right?. It is the "enmity against God" and "not subject to the laws of God". Right?

So until we die to the flesh and have that "carnal mind" burned out of us.... and are "born again" (given life through Christ) we cannot even SEE the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/list:u]


BUT...  this will not happen to the Pharisses before it happens to the "publicans" and the "harlots"... will it?

    Mat 23:23  
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, JUDGMENT, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.[/list:u]

Those who DO the will of the Father will enter in FIRST: (Doers, not just hearers!)

    Mat 21:28  But what think ye?
A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, AND WENT.

Mat 21:30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: AND WENT NOT.

Mat 21:31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.[/list:u]

The scriptures clearly tell us that the tares are gathered FIRST.... that is why I see it that the harvest has already begun... "for judgment must begin at the house of God"... and the "hay, wood and stubble" has already begun to be "burned up". Hasn't it?

    Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE.

Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.[/list:u]

And what did Peter say?

    1Pe 4:12  
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:[/list:u]

Who did Jesus say were the "reapers"?

    Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.[/list:u]

So look at these:


    Heb 13:2  
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained ANGELS unawares.

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.[/list:u]

Blessings,
Chrissie
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2006, 11:45:37 PM »

Not sure it's a good idea to keep going on with this discussion, but I did want to answer your question, Bob, and clear that up.

Blessings,
Chrissie
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bobf

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #111 on: June 20, 2006, 03:42:29 AM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Not sure it's a good idea to keep going on with this discussion, but I did want to answer your question, Bob, and clear that up.

Blessings,
Chrissie


Chrissie, I'm so glad you cleared that up for me.  That is exactly the same way I see it.

Last night, I was reading the same passage from Revelation that you quoted.  What struck me is that the harvest is cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Joel also prophesies about the harvest.  Isn't it strange that the harvest is ripe at the time when their wickedness is great?!

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.  14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

This harvest & winepress judgment leads to the darkening of the sun & moon.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

And these things were fulfilled in those who were added to the church on pentecost.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;  17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:  19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Blessings,
Bob
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mercie

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #112 on: June 20, 2006, 06:24:32 AM »

Quote
o my understanding of what you've said is that "them that sleep" are "them walking in darkness" i.e the spiritually dead (pharisees for example). You say these are "harvested first" and "caught up first". First relative to whom? I thought you meant first relative to those who are NOT spiritually dead (i.e. the publicans & sinners).


speaking of Which:-

 


 Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre;[/u] with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:  


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: [/b]


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:  


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:  


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:  


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.  


 Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.  
 
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.  
 
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

There is NO FAITHFULNESS ,INWARD part?



Psa 5:9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [[/u]is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 62:4 They only consult to cast [him] down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


 Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly;[/b] and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #113 on: June 20, 2006, 10:21:08 AM »

Amen! Bob. Great verses!!

Glad I cleared that up, then, too.  :wink:

Blessings,
Chrissie  :wink:
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