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Author Topic: Eternal Life not promised?  (Read 22613 times)

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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« on: June 12, 2006, 09:51:40 PM »

Quote
Hi,

Do you believe that ALL will be saved and that ALL people will get eternal life?

Chrsi


Dear Chrsi:

"Being saved," and "eternal life" are two entirely different things. Of course all will be saved as they are dozens of Scriptures that show this. But NO ONE will be given "eternal life," as it is nowhere promised in Scripture. What is promised is "immortality."

God be with you,

Ray


Maybe I should go back to not reading the emails because I am becomong more and more confused by statements that I am reading there.  :oops:

Can someone explain this to me? In light of these:

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [/list:u]


And probably 20 or more other verse about "eternal life".

Is Ray saying that it is not something that is promised to eveyone? Or something that is promised for 'the future' (to all)... in light of the fact that we have it now? Does anyone know?

It is indeed promised to those who believe, though. Isn't it?

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.[/list:u]


Chrissie
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mercie

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Re: Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 10:03:04 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Quote
Hi,

Do you believe that ALL will be saved and that ALL people will get eternal life?

Chrsi


Dear Chrsi:

"Being saved," and "eternal life" are two entirely different things. Of course all will be saved as they are dozens of Scriptures that show this. But NO ONE will be given "eternal life," as it is nowhere promised in Scripture. What is promised is "immortality."

God be with you,

Ray


Maybe I should go back to not reading the emails because I am becomong more and more confused by statements that I am reading there.  :oops:

Can someone explain this to me? In light of these:

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [/list:u]


And probably 20 or more other verse about "eternal life".

Is Ray saying that it is not something that is promised to eveyone? Or something that is promised for 'the future' (to all)... in light of the fact that we have it now? Does anyone know?

It is indeed promised to those who believe, though. Isn't it?

    1Jo 2:25  
And this is the PROMISE that he hath PROMISED us, even ETERNAL LIFE.[/list:u]


Chrissie


Chrissie

This does look like a contradiction to what the scriptures say.

As much as one respects the teachings here at times im at loss why emails are answered like this.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.


n 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


The scripture I read and there are more make it Known that Eternal Life Is now.

Im somewhat confused again by this email , lets have patience to see what Ray has to say.
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 10:10:51 PM »

It's Semantics Chrissie.

Ray is probably referring to the use of the word "eternal" instead of "eonian".

Not "eternal" life in the english dictionary sense of the word but "aionios" life in the "to know God and Jesus Christ" reality.

Most confuse "Immortal" life with "aionios / eonian / eternal / everlasting / age abiding / Strong's # 166" etc. life.

I hope that makes sense.

Deed  :D
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 10:12:14 PM »

Quote from: Deedle
It's Semantics Chrissie.

Ray is probably referring to the use of the word "eternal" instead of "eonian".

Not "eternal" life in the english dictionary sense of the word but "aionios" life in the "to know God and Jesus Christ" reality.

Most confuse "Immortal" life with "aionios / eonian / eternal / everlasting / age abiding / Strong's # 166 etc. life.

I hope that makes sense.

Deed  :D


Yes, it does. Thanks.  :wink:

Chrissie
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bobf

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 10:14:00 PM »

Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 10:14:46 PM »

Chrissie,

I'm seeing this is Gods own record itself based on the very thing, "eternal life". Its to know God. Our hope and our desire and the perfect come.

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.[/u]

Supposed to be "in us"

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.[/u]

There are verses that its the very record itself (gotta get them)

Perhaps Ray is speaking of eternal life in another way? I'm not too sure. Scripture shows this is the very record to be believed upon. Then ofcourse it speaks on not believing that record.

Not sure what he is talking about :?  Perhaps an honest mistake.

Peace Daniel
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 10:23:02 PM »

Man you guys are fast! I thought it was an honest mistake :lol:

My verses says is "eternal life", Ray translates "knowing God" as "age abiding" life.

Yes, we are given to know the Father, His love and nothing can separate us from His love. Neither life nor death for both our indeed ours in Him.

Great job deedle, clear that up before it becomes a stir :lol:

Peace

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 10:25:46 PM »

Quote from: bobf
Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.


Yes, I see that now, Bob. Thanks!

I wasn't even thinking of that... already understanding what "eternal life" is. To me, though, his statment is confusing. Because those who DO NOT know what "eternal life" is will call him a liar (as it is plainly stated as "eternal life" in many translations) and even those who DO know what it is (like me) might overlook what he is saying/meaning.

If he has mentioned "aionios" it might have made his answer a bit clearer. As he does acknowledge that most use the KJV - as does he (for this very reason) in his articles.

Had I thought about it longer perhaps it would have come to me, but I couldn't for the life of me (pun intended :wink: ) figure out what he meant by that.  :oops:

Blessings,
Chrissie
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hillsbororiver

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 10:26:49 PM »

Yes, I believe Deedle has it, eternal comes to us from the middle English by way of middle French originating from late Latin. One of the primary definitions is "of infinite duration" only One can make that claim, without beginning, without end.

In faith we can all claim eventual immortality, never again to die.

Joe
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 10:29:03 PM »

Not trying to cause a 'stir'...  :oops:

Chrissie

(I know that's not what you were saying, Daniel, just want to be clear anyway.)  :wink:
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 10:46:43 PM »

Chrissie,

I apologize, no I was not meaning you hon. Its just when speaking of these things can cause a ruckus, if not caught on time :lol:  I was confused myself most honestly.

"Eternal life" (or the "other words" ) one of which Rays chooses to use (Aionion life) Should equal the same thing. In truth what it is (despite words) Is simply "to know Him".  :D

Peace

Daniel
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 10:55:46 PM »

Quote
"Eternal life" (or the "other words" ) one of which Rays chooses to use (Aionion life) Should equal the same thing. In truth what it is (despite words) Is simply "to know Him".  


Amen and Amen!

 :D

Deed
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longhorn

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2006, 03:13:00 AM »

Deedle, You da man.... :)  :)
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Lightseeker

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2006, 04:50:47 PM »

Quote from: [b]bobf[/b]
Ray is saying there is no such thing in scriptures as ETERNAL life, its aionion life. ETERNAL is bad translating.

EDIT: well I see Deedle already pointed this out.


Actually there is such a thing in scripture, but it isn't the word aionios / eonian or any deriviative thereof.  The Greek for for eternity as we define it is AIDIOS.  It's only used twice in scripture, once in Rom 1:20 and once in Jude 1:6.  
0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only)

Joe,

Quote
In faith we can all claim eventual immortality, never again to die.


If we can all claim it in faith then what does it mean to you in Romans 2:7 where it tells us to seek it?  If seeking is the faith issue, and we forsake the faith...then do we loose it?  But if we all get it anyway, then why the need for 'seeking' or 'faith' to begin with?  What do you think?
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2006, 05:27:18 PM »

Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)

God Bless,
Jeremy
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Harryfeat

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 05:46:19 PM »

Maybe a cite from Strongs dictionary will help here.


G126
ἀΐ́διος
aidios
ah-id'-ee-os
From G104; everduring (forward and backward, or foward only): - eternal, everlasting.
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 06:15:06 PM »

Quote from: jerreye
Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)

God Bless,
Jeremy


Wow Jeremy thank you for posting this. I knew it had nothing to do with length of days. I knew it meant to know God as the verse itself gives its own definition. But I thought on the definition you posted of its "direct meaning" in itself (aside from the verses definition).You show it by a straight on definition by itself (which I never heard before)

You wrote

Quote
that ADIOS which is given to us is something that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive


even imperceptible

That sounds alot like this simply in itself (described elsewhere)

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.[/u]

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.[/u]


Thanks for posting that Jeremy, I love catching those things even i the definitions themselves :D

Peace

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2006, 12:33:45 PM »

Quote from: jerreye
Hi Lightseeker,

I used to believe too that AIDIOS was indeed the Greek word for "eternal" or "everlasting". It isn't. "AIDIOS" actually means "imperceptible" (somthing that is very hard or even impossible to mentally perceive), and does not mean what our modern english word "eternal" means. Different concept all together.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [AIDIOS...better translated "imperceptible"] chains under darkness UNTO[UNTIL] the judgment of the great day.



God Bless,
Jeremy


Jeremy,

Something new to think about I guess.  That definition does change things.  What is your source for that definition?
Quote

If AIDIOS meant "everlasting", then there could be no "UNTO/UNTIL" in this verse :)


Wouldn't another POV still work here?  The fact that the 'chains are everlasting' doesn't mean that they can't be released...does it?  I mean does the fact that our God is a consuming fire mean that fire will go out when all rebellion and evil works are burned up???  See what I mean.  Don't know but just a thought.

Harryfeat,

My original def. was from Strong's...but I just gave the abbreviated essence.  That's just the way my program lists it.
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2006, 05:29:36 PM »

Hi Daniel,

Your welcome :)

I am glad that you posted that piece of scripture...

1Cr 1:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen [perceived], nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, "the things" which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Couple that with the following verse and we can better understand what this word "Aidios" means:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal ["AIDIOS"...IMPERCEPTIBLE] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

What does "Eternal Power" mean, anyway? Who knows! It doesn't really make too much sense to me. However, IMPERCEPTIBLE POWER does make sense to me...Eye has NOT SEEN!

God Bless,

Jeremy
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2006, 05:43:43 PM »

Hi Lightseeker,

If something is truly "everlasting", then that essentially means it WILL never and CAN never end. Otherwise it wouldn't really be "EVERlasting", it would be "AGElasting". See what I mean?

Here is the Concordant Literal NT rendering of Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day.

Look at Romans 1:20:

Romans 1:20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless.

The KJ has "Eternal power". What makes more sense..."imperceptible power", or "eternal power"? We know God is powerful, but we are really unable to truly PERCEIVE its magnitude. It is imperceptible for us humans to perceive His true power.

But I totally see where you are at right now with that word...I was there about a year ago when I posted a message stating my beliefs (at the time) that ADIOS means "everlasting". I was mistaken.

God bless!
Jeremy
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