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Author Topic: Eternal Life not promised?  (Read 23145 times)

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eutychus

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2006, 05:06:45 PM »

Quote from: jerreye
Hi Deedle (and anyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy




J.

hello

i could be wrong, but i see the 1000 yrs as being now and forever.

obviously salvation  is on going it is THE day.

more to come? sure.

but for us now who believe, what a wonderfull gift.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.



there is NO time with GOD.

so today is the 1000 yrs.

so is tomorrow, and the next day and the next and the next, etc. :P


hope im not crazy :arrow:  opps
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eutychus

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2006, 05:10:15 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Hey Euty, myself and Chrissie are talking on this very thing at "tentmaker" under "Resurrection. first". My name is "Ruby" over there. I just was not sure it was something we could discuss here is why I took it there. Out of consideration to the board. Have you gone over there at all. Talking of the "thousand years" as they are shown in scripture. Its been a delightful conversation, full of insight the Lord has graciously given.

Blessing us always, we can't know a thing by ourselves without His help amen?

Peace

Daniel





what? chatting on another forum is verboten
 :lol:


havent been there in a while will check it out.

i am euty there too :wink:


am eutychus and or chuckt  where ever i go.

multi personality :?


love twords ya
chuckt
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2006, 05:10:52 PM »

Quote from: jerreye
Hi Deedle (and everyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy


He is the same within these three days "Yesterday", "To Day" and "For ever" (two of which is a thousand years TWICETOLD)

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The word "Reign" of LIFE is attached to both the last of "the two days" as in we REIGN IN LIFE  BY "ONE" Jesus Christ.

Darkness or death is pass over here as John shows. "We have passed from death unto life because "we love the brethren". In regards to "darkness" John adresses that as well. "Death", "darkness" and "night" reigned in "yesterday" (as a thousand years) shown past as John defines it after a spiritual place.

Its all how each one has come to understand it.

Peace

Daniel
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eutychus

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2006, 05:17:23 PM »

today is somebody's yesterday, tomorrow is somebody's today

and its ALL CHRIST'S :shock:



im lovin it
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2006, 05:31:32 PM »

Like two days or two ages wherein He is the Rock of them. Standing between the two. He is at the end (being "the End" Himself) of the first order and is "The Beginning" (Himself) of the Second order He establishes.

He is also "The end" of this as well. Being the Author and finisher of our faith. Receiving "the End" of our faith as well. Two Ages, one of a child and one of a Son. Like a circuit.

Revelation by itself cannot define the "thousand years" as no prophecy of scripture is its own interpretation. Peter says not to be ignorant of "this one thing" in regard to the thousand years. These are attached to "Days" one of "Yesterday"(was) and one of "Today" (is). Death reigned of Yesterday (was) for He came ONCE to bear sin (He who WAS) and comes a SECOND TIME (without sin) unto salvation (NOW IS). Sin should not "Reign" here, as we are not under the law (or the power of it) but under "Grace" through which the "Reign" is connected.  To these "two" is the  "thousand years" connected to. Two days. Remembering... He lived "a thousand years" TWICETOLD.

Yesterday (thousand years) To Day (Grace reigns by one, thousand years) and "For ever" there is seen a "reign" as well.

If we are in The "To Day". One could say rather "NOW and FOR EVER" OR "To Day" and FOR EVER as Paul calls it.

Peace

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2006, 05:38:05 PM »

Chrissie,

Quote
Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality  


How are they the same? Does everyone get "age-abiding" (or aionios) life? Who does get it? When do they get it?

love_magnified

Quote
Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.

Good questions Chrissie. Let me try to elaborate on the good response of what Love_ said. We're talking about the word aion and its derivative aionios. Right on Love_!

The word aion is defining a quantity of time while aionios  is a quality of or within that same time period.  It's not as much dependent upon the exact time of that period, as it is a quality that exists within that time period.  For example:  There is 60 minutes in an hour.  If we have 5 hourly meetings tomorrow does that mean we necessarily were in each of them for 60 minutes?  No it doesn't.  It just means we participated (for a period of time) within each of those 60 minute hourly (time frame) meetings.  The same is true with an aion, which is an age/eon or a definite period or length of time (just how long we don't know, God knows).  But we can experience aionios life within that aion time period.   Aionios life is a quality of life that pertains to that age/aion.  The YLT always says age-during concerning the translation of aionios (like Love_ mentioned "pertaining to ages"). In other words it's speaking to something that happens during that age).  What's happening is determined by an associated word (such as life age-during, death age-during, punishment age-during ect).  I can receive the aionian chastisements/punishments/judgments of God in my lifetime (however long that may be) but they all take place within this aion/age (however long it may be).  But I'm hoping for immortality or 'the quality of God's life/aionian' which will allow me live to the end of this aion/age.

Aidios on the other hand speaks of not ages/aions or qualities within those ages/aionios, but it speaks of endless time foreward and backward.  Included in aidios is all the aions/ages.

The reason Ray says God promises no one aidios life, is  because aionian life (or 'the life' of that age) is 'within' aidios life (God's eternal life).  So aonian life 'during this age' is equal to the aidios or eternal life that exists with God.  Aionian is a quality of time that takes place within God's quantity of time aidios/eternal.

I hope I'm doing this picture justice because I'm drawing on some faded out grey matter concerning a teaching read years ago.  Not many places to discuss this kind of stuff so it's not been challenged/reinforced/meditated upon enough to explain any better.  I'm also at the daughter's house this weekend and was really just going to 'look' today...not post.  :roll:

One last thought.  If time is a created entity...and God lives outside that 'box' looking in (therefore seeing the "end from the beginning), then we aren't looking for a definition of eternity anyway because eternity is time without end...isn't it?  What we will enter into, when we enter into God's LIFE in the hereafter, is really timelessness...isn't it?

Let the wheels turn.  :idea:   I gotta get back to family.   :arrow:
Happy 'pappy day' tomorrow to all those of you who are.  And I guess only those in USA?
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2006, 05:50:59 PM »

To see "The End" of the first thing, is looking at the Begining HIMSELF. The words expressing "The End" in scripture express WHO Christ is in relation to "the Covenants". He IS "The End" of the FIRST (covenant) and HE IS "The Begining" of The SECOND (covenant).

Thats why there is what appears a contradiction of "terms" within "words". HE is the Rock of THE AGES. That of THE AGE (limited Duration, apponted time of the Father) of The Child, "under the Law". He is also "THE END" of THAT AGE (THE LAW) but IN HIMSELF "HE" is WITHOUT END.

So you have AGE, END and WITHOUT END. Seeing these without seeing Him in the "midst of them" causes the disputes and misses THE MARK of what they speak of.

HE is also,  THE BEGINNING, of WHAT? The SECOND AGE, whats THAT? The AGE of a SON. We from HERE receive THE END of our FAITH which AGAIN IS HIM (Who IS BOTH "The Begining" AND "The End") BUT who is "WITHOUT" BEGINING OR END (IN HIMSELF)

Thats why you see beginings and ends and ages tied together and it becomes a complete MESS without seeing Him standing in the midst of these things.

I'll stay completely out of this if I feel it will go nowhere but into dispute :lol:

Peace

Daniel
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2006, 07:31:54 PM »

Thanks Chuck, Daniel for your responses...

I understand that a thousand years is AS (like) a day unto God. I believe that. But this to me is simply saying that time is not an issue with God. I don't see how it relates directly to "THE thousand year reign"  :?

Isn't it clear that THE thousand year reign starts just AFTER the first resurrection? We certainly are not yet "reigning over the nations with any rod of iron" that I can see  :shock:

We ALL are going to die physically (unless He return prior to that...let's HOPE!  :o )....but THE resurrection back to life happens when our DEAD soul is reunited with a SPIRITUAL BODY. This has yet to happen, obviously. So, THE resurrection is yet future, so doesn't this mean that THE thousand year reign is yet FUTURE and NOT now?

This is how I see it when I  read the scripture....However, if what you guys are really trying to say is that we, the true believers, have it (the LIFE, the SPIRIT etc) in EARNEST (down payment) and NOT in FULLNESS, then THAT I understand and FULLY agree, because that is what I see in scripture!

I believe we have ALL of these things (at least those to whom the "ends of the ages have already attained") in earnest only at this time.

But let me tell ya, the earnest is sure better than nothing!  :D
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2006, 07:51:05 PM »

Jerreye,

To go into a lot of details about what I do or don’t believe about the thousand years or the ruling and reigning with Christ might cause me to step TOO FAR over the line that I try to respect here.

I try to stay on COMMON ground were I can out of respect for Ray and for those here who believe as is taught by Ray (I used to be one of those people).

I can only say that we need to always continue to seek and to ask God for the wisdom and knowledge to see the deeper, hidden things.

We need to ask “what does ‘this’ or ‘that’ MEAN"?

For instance:

What does it mean to “rule and reign with Christ a thousand years??

What does it mean to “rule the nations with a rod of iron? What IS a “rod of iron?? What are “the nations??

Who are the “dead?? What does it mean to be “dead?? What does it mean to be “resurrected from the dead??

What is the “earnest? of the spirit? And How does that relate to “moving on to maturity??

What is the difference between a “child? and a “son??

What is "THE resurrection"?

(Is not Chirst THE resurrection and THE life?)

Lot’s of questions to be asked and answered.

My understanding used to be exactly the same as yours. Whether right or wrong, God has seen fit to change it, in at least a few areas.

Blessings,
Chrissie
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2006, 08:10:08 PM »

Chrissie,

I certainly do not want to cause you to "go too far", chrissie. My intentions on this forum are pure. I hope you believe that.

You state that we need to seek the deeper, hidden things of God (the MEAT, if you will). This is true, but we shouldn't even consider it until we have a firm grasp of the milk... If we don't have a SOLID and sustained diet of sincere spiritual milk, then moving directly on to the meat is a very risky and dangerous venture and can cause a person to start teaching serious heresy.

Much love to you :)

Jeremy
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gmik

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2006, 08:29:08 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel



1Thess 5:5-ll   (Paraphrased)   We are not of the NIGHT, Let us not SLEEP AS others do....they that SLEEP  are drunk....Let us be of the DAY, be sober and vigilant...not to wrath but to obtain salvation!.....

But WHETHER .. we wake or sleep...WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER...wherefore COMFORT one another......

Don't know if this fits in here but I just love this!!  Got it from the Tamar study over on Mike's site.
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hillsbororiver

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2006, 08:50:16 PM »

This is going to be real short as I have my back against the wall time wise.

Consider this thought if you will, how can one be "resurrected" if one was not alive in the first place? How can someone be in the 1st resurrection unto life if they were not dead to the flesh and living in His spirit first?

This business of the thousand years being now (or in each individual's life)I believe is a mistake, those that are the called (but not chosen) and the unbelievers are not yet spiritually alive (walking dead spiritually), that is why when they are brought out of thier graves they are of the 2nd (continued) death, the Lake of Fire.

Christ was very much alive in spirit (our example) during His time on earth, yet He experienced physical death (unless you do not believe He really "died" for our sins) He experienced the sleep of death, but will anyone argue he was not of the Spirit?

Those who die that are dead spiritually will be raised spiritually dead, those who have died to the flesh living this life spiritually will be (brought back to the life they were growing in) re-erected (resurrected) to continue in the spiritual life, this time in a spiritual, immortal, incorruptable body.

My point is that the 1st resurrection is only for those who experienced (were brought to) spiritual life while still physically in the flesh, whatever generation they happened to live in, to be awakened to life once more with a spiritual body like our Lord's to rule and minister with Him unto the salvation of all mankind.

Got to go but am VERY interested in any and all comments.

Peace,

Joe
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2006, 09:10:39 PM »

Quote
This is going to be real short as I have my back against the wall time wise.

Consider this thought if you will, how can one be "resurrected" if one was not alive in the first place?


Exactly, Joe. But are any of us “alive? (spiritually speaking) until we are “raised from the dead??

    Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/list:u]

We have to awake from our ‘sleep’ (death) so that we CAN “live?.

    Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith,
Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.[/list:u]

Only the elect/chosen ARE in the “first resurrection?.  But is not being resurrected passing from death unto life?

No, unbelievers are not yet spiritually alive (that makes them ‘dead’, does it not? Being that they “have no life? in them?


Where does it say that one has to be “re-erected?? Or that one has to be brought to life “once more??

Certainly we have to shed these bodies of flesh, but we can indeed walk in the spirit and NOT in the flesh even while we are in them. Do the scriptures not tell us this?

I’m short on time, too, got a niece’s birthday party to go to.

Maybe I can add more later.  :?:

Good scriptures Gena! Absolutely relevant!!

Blessings ALL,
Chrissie
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rocky

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2006, 10:23:05 PM »

We all agree that the revelation of Christ is, was and will be.  Then why isn't the resurrection "is" for those Christ has revealed himself to.  Why do those who he has revealed himself to have to wait for the "will be", for their resurrection??


Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Jesus is the resurrection.  He was the resurrection, he is the resurrection, and he will be the resurrection.  


Seems to me, to always be looking for a future resurrection is to deny the "is" part of Christ.   He is the resurrection, to those he has revealed himself to.
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2006, 11:35:02 PM »

Hi Rocky,

I believe that we DO have "the resurrection" and "the life"....all of which is Jesus Christ! BUT, we only have it in earnest (down-payment) - 2 Cor 1:22. Because we HAVE Christ does not mean that we are already "resurrected from the dead".

The FULLNESS comes in the actual resurrection, which is in the future.

We should't be guilty (I am not saying you are  8) ) of "overthrowing the faith of some", as Paul put it:

"...who strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

The resurrection has NOT taken place. Paul makes it clear that it is in the future.

God Bless,
Jeremy
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2006, 11:37:56 PM »

Quote from: gmik
Quote from: Daniel
Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel



1Thess 5:5-ll   (Paraphrased)   We are not of the NIGHT, Let us not SLEEP AS others do....they that SLEEP  are drunk....Let us be of the DAY, be sober and vigilant...not to wrath but to obtain salvation!.....

But WHETHER .. we wake or sleep...WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER...wherefore COMFORT one another......

Don't know if this fits in here but I just love this!!  Got it from the Tamar study over on Mike's site.


Amen Gena :D  Theres a "play on words" on "the night" and that which is associated with it.

The Spirit of sleep given is that they would sleep and not wake and that they might indeed rejoice (in it). Paul and James adress "this kind" of rejoicing. Drunkeness is being "high minded" (thinking more highly of themselves then they ought) rather then soberly (or lowliness of mind).

Its true, Amen that whether we sleep or wake we live together with Him. Like He is holding hands with "Yesterday" (of the night) and "To day" (not of the night, but of "the day") Yet they both exist together (just in different places spiritually speaking). He stands between them.

One could be in a place where darkness (or night, or of yesterday) is PAST for them. The other who "loveth not His brother" is in darkness (of night and of yesterday) even "until now". It speaks of these things in various ways.

I agree, He is GOOD :D

Peace

Daniel
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2006, 11:48:34 PM »

Quote from: rocky
We all agree that the revelation of Christ is, was and will be.  Then why isn't the resurrection "is" for those Christ has revealed himself to.  Why do those who he has revealed himself to have to wait for the "will be", for their resurrection??


Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Jesus is the resurrection.  He was the resurrection, he is the resurrection, and he will be the resurrection.  


Seems to me, to always be looking for a future resurrection is to deny the "is" part of Christ.   He is the resurrection, to those he has revealed himself to.


Excellent point Rocky, He IS and IS "TO COME" to all who look for Him. Studying of words in connection to what this all means would help in many areas.

Its a "lively hope". Its easy to believe in a Him who WAS, and easier to believe for Him after your dead and buried. Believing on Him who IS is much more difficult to do. The "power of God" for "the present" in the life that "now IS". Though not  in "this life" only.

Peace

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2006, 12:33:06 AM »

jerreye,

Who said the resurrection is past? How can the resurrection be past when Christ IS the resurrection? How can the resurrection be past when death has yet to be destroyed?

Chrissie
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2006, 01:25:48 AM »

Chrissie,

I never said that the resurrection is past. I was stating just the opposite.

This is why I used the following passage:

2Tim 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The resurrection is NOT past. It hasn't happend yet. It is in the future.

Jeremy
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rocky

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2006, 01:36:00 AM »

The earnest of spirit i think is a valid point, but I still think there is a valid point that Jesus is the resurrection.  He isnt' the means to an event, called the resurrection.  He is the resurrection.

Isnt' this correct????
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