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 1 
 on: Today at 03:27:34 PM 
Started by greenef - Last post by Dave in Tenn
Here's a little more that dawned on me this morning.  Magistrates, kings, rulers (and society in general) may give honors for other things to people who do any or all of the things listed as deeds of the flesh in spite of that.  But Magistrates, kings, rulers (and society in general) do not give honors FOR the doing of those things.  I've seen serial adulterers receive honors...but I've never seen anyone honored FOR ADULTERY!

When we start seeing Award Shows with titles like "Murderer of the Year" then maybe we can say with certainty that Magistrates, kings, rulers (and society in general) are not terrors to evil.  The worst we can say right now is that they are ineffective too often, and ultimately unable to change hearts. 

It might be tolerated, ignored, and/or snickered at.  But it is never honored.  What is "looked up to" are traits of the fruit of the Spirit.  The whole of creation is even now groaning for the unveiling of the manifest sons of God.  Are they aching for the likes of me to show up?  Or are they "groaning" because they see me coming?  Are they fed up with counterfeit "sons of god" and self-proclaimed substitutes?  I pity those without faith, because that's the best they can "hope" for.  Any wise among them has already rejected them, even at the cost of rejecting faith altogether. 

But, He came to seek and to save the Lost.     

 2 
 on: Today at 08:10:53 AM 
Started by octoberose - Last post by Porter
Bob and lareli, isn't everyone saved eventually? It is judgment that stands between us and salvation am I right? What ever we do, right or wrong, we will be judged, everyone in their own order. 

 3 
 on: Today at 08:05:53 AM 
Started by octoberose - Last post by Porter
octoberose, I was strongly under the impression that the Saints of God are in tribulation now, and have been since Jesus walked the earth in the flesh. According to Ray, tribulation ends at the re-appearing of Christ, while at the same time, wrath begins at the re-appearing of Christ.

https://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm

One other major point: Clearly this verse and others show that Christ returns " after the tribulation of those days." "But in those days, after the tribulation... shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His Elect..." (Mark 13:24 & 27). 

And Jesus is said to come in wrath:

    "...hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come..." (Rev. 6:16-17)

    "And the seventh angel sounded... [the seventh trump is the last trump, I Cor. 15:52] ...and Thy wrath is come..." (Rev. 11:18)

The days of "great tribulation" end at Christ's presence, and the day of "His wrath" begins at His presence. They are two separate and different events, and different judgments on different people for different purposes. If you have not seen or do not understand the absolute differences in Scripture between tribulation and affliction versus wrath and indignation, then be sure to read my ten-page section dealing with it in detail, in my paper "Exposing the Secret Rapture Theory."

Tribulation is almost exclusively administered to God's people. And just to remove any and all doubts concerning this, we will now cite every Scripture on tribulation in the entire Bible:

As to what I'd do in a situation like you've described? I haven't a clue, aside from praying for mercy for all those involved.

 4 
 on: Yesterday at 08:58:02 PM 
Started by octoberose - Last post by Dennis Vogel
Here in the UK, many of us are watching intently on what is happening in the US.  It does indeed seem that the country is on the brink of civil war.  Look, I am someon who believes that the entire political system is Satanic and run by evil spirits who only want power.  I have no horses in this race but they will do everything they can to deny a re-election of Trump and I can see uprisings happening later this year.

Ultimately, with government tyranny seemingly on the horizon, how do you resist?  DO you allow people to forcibly remove you from society for not taking a vaccination for example?  Another thread on here talks of following government orders  - but if govt orders are telling you to poison yourself and others - are you really going to do it?

The world has changed in the blink of an eye since March.  I am now thinking about how to survive.  And I am not the only one, trust me.

We have a rule here about NO Politics  - Everyone please adhere this rule.

 5 
 on: Yesterday at 08:56:01 PM 
Started by octoberose - Last post by lareli
Hi,
I was referring to people who at least believe that they are operating out of an indwelling spirit of God.
At the time Peter made his choice, caused choice, he was not yet having the holy spirit which came at Pentecost Yes, no?
I have always believed that Peter's example was given to us to teach a lesson about human weakness and later lessons were given to teach how the 12 conducted themselves under the influence of God's spirit.

Comments are welcome, Bob

Bob we are all referring to people ‘who at least’ believe they are operating out of an indwelling of Gods spirit. Obviously. I can’t tell exactly what you’re implying perhaps you can clarify..

To answer your first question though..

What if not using lethal force to stop someone from killing your family affected your salvation.. has the spirit of God never used lethal force to protect His people?

 6 
 on: Yesterday at 08:04:52 PM 
Started by octoberose - Last post by zander
Here in the UK, many of us are watching intently on what is happening in the US.  It does indeed seem that the country is on the brink of civil war.  Look, I am someon who believes that the entire political system is Satanic and run by evil spirits who only want power.  I have no horses in this race but they will do everything they can to deny a re-election of Trump and I can see uprisings happening later this year.

Ultimately, with government tyranny seemingly on the horizon, how do you resist?  DO you allow people to forcibly remove you from society for not taking a vaccination for example?  Another thread on here talks of following government orders  - but if govt orders are telling you to poison yourself and others - are you really going to do it?

The world has changed in the blink of an eye since March.  I am now thinking about how to survive.  And I am not the only one, trust me.

 7 
 on: Yesterday at 04:59:34 PM 
Started by greenef - Last post by Dennis Vogel
Quote
So God is allowing them to degenerate also as a punishment on wrong behavior.

Kind of, but God directs all things. Example:

Ecclesiastes 1:13 (CLV)

I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Also see this thread started a few days ago: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17340.0.html

 8 
 on: Yesterday at 03:55:39 PM 
Started by greenef - Last post by Lightshedder23
Hi Dave,

Yes, I see what you mean. Thank you. I think I have got a hold on this one now. There is no law against obeying God or living in the spirit towards your neighbor. We have to live in the spirit towards the higher powers as well and the purposes for what God is accomplishing through them.

As far as harmonizing being in subjection to the higher powers and obeying God rather than men. One would have to ask if any government decree is therefore against God seeing the powers that be are ordained of God.

As you say:

"Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common.  And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it."

This comment seems to be the issue here and gave me a little more clarity on the topic.

The government is getting more "ungodly" as human morality is degenerating. So God is allowing them to degenerate also as a punishment on wrong behavior. If humanity exercised a consciousness of morality than we would have a government that praised and promoted the same.

As far as those of us that do the good in the middle of all this, if God so will, we will suffer for doing well, which is noted of God, but we are not ignorant of what or why evil-doers are being punished by the government and losing freedoms.

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The word and plan of God are always two-fold and those that do good may get caught in the middle of this storm and suffer for righteousness but we are not ignorant of God's will for us and towards them in His purpose of allowing all this.

 9 
 on: Yesterday at 01:53:47 PM 
Started by greenef - Last post by Dave in Tenn
I think this verse fits in here:

Galatians 5:22,23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

See it?  There is no law against these things.

And to what do they contrast?



19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Seems to me, having the fruit of the Spirit, in most circumstances, makes one a pretty model member of society.  Striving to live peaceably as much as possible with all men.  We're not called to ostentatious religiosity...same as in Ecclesiastes (that most un-christian of OT books). 

Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common.  And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it. 

Paul here begins with his conflict with the Judaizers, but I think he uses that "lesson" to teach a deeper faith about Law in general....even laws that aren't in the bible.

Maybe there are and have been exceptions in History, but even in the worst of times  and in the worst of cultures, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.




 10 
 on: Yesterday at 11:30:06 AM 
Started by greenef - Last post by Lightshedder23
Hello bible-truths,

I really like this discussion on Romans 13.

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Peter says the same:

1Pe 2:13  Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

I read Rays post in this thread about how we need to resist the devil, but we are still subject to the higher powers. Tribute to whom tribute, custom to whom custom. Even Jesus said give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods. This is all pretty easy to follow to this point. Even the commandment that we ought to obey God rather than man is pretty straightforward for me. Seeing if you know what Gods commandments are, and you wish to obey them, than it can be easy to discern God over man.

To add a little more to this you can consider Peter again:

1Pe 2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20  For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

This is summed up well by Peter here in 1Peter 3:17:

1Pe 3:17  For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


What I feel is confusing about this is what Paul and Peter say in these next verses:

Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Even Peter says the same thing as Paul again:

1Pe 2:14  Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15  For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


If we do that which is good we will have praise of the same? Governors are sent by God for the praise of them that do well?

I cannot make any sense what Paul and Peter are saying here. It is almost as they are considering magistrates to be impeccable in their judgments and authority, that if we follow God over men that we will have praise of Government.

I hate to say this because when I come across a verse I do not understand I always look within, but I find it hard to believe that Paul or Peter really believed these principles to be true based on the rest of the bible and the contentions they and Jesus had with authority. It just does not make any sense to me or harmonize at all.

If anyone who has a grasp on this can comment I would love to here what you folks have to say.

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